I didn't say the Allies lost. I said the UK didn't really "win".
Tom Send a noteboard - 07/04/2011 05:31:10 PM
There is a key distinction.
Furthermore, the issue, based on your responses, is not that I "don't know what the Polish contribution was", but that you seem to have an odd definition of "decisive". A "decisive" contribution is one that changes the outcome. Not hastens an outcome, but changes it. It affects the DECISION of the war, not its cost to those fighting it.
So, NO, something that reduced the length of the European war by two years is NOT, in any way, a "decisive" contribution. It is a significant contribution, but clearly not decisive. It didn't change who won.
Furthermore, given how large the Red Army was (35 million Soviets were in its service at one point or another during the war) and how sophisticated its industrial production was getting, the Soviets could have destroyed the Wehrmacht without significant Allied contributions, and the Enigma decoding played only the most minor role on the East Front.
If Germany did not receive the oil it needed from Romania, I doubt that Operation Barbarossa would have gotten as far as it did. It wasn't until the fall of the Ploesti oil fields in 1944 that Germany's oil supplies started to suffer. Hitler got the oil he needed until then.
I repeat: the underlying assertion that led to this entire thread is little more than a lot of backslapping to ease the perpetually bruised ego of the Poles. Hell, that whole Guardian article is little more than such backslapping. So the cavalry didn't charge tanks, but just armored cars and mobile infantry. The Poles still had a terrible defense plan and lost even though they knew exactly what Germany was throwing at them.
Furthermore, the issue, based on your responses, is not that I "don't know what the Polish contribution was", but that you seem to have an odd definition of "decisive". A "decisive" contribution is one that changes the outcome. Not hastens an outcome, but changes it. It affects the DECISION of the war, not its cost to those fighting it.
So, NO, something that reduced the length of the European war by two years is NOT, in any way, a "decisive" contribution. It is a significant contribution, but clearly not decisive. It didn't change who won.
Furthermore, given how large the Red Army was (35 million Soviets were in its service at one point or another during the war) and how sophisticated its industrial production was getting, the Soviets could have destroyed the Wehrmacht without significant Allied contributions, and the Enigma decoding played only the most minor role on the East Front.
If Germany did not receive the oil it needed from Romania, I doubt that Operation Barbarossa would have gotten as far as it did. It wasn't until the fall of the Ploesti oil fields in 1944 that Germany's oil supplies started to suffer. Hitler got the oil he needed until then.
I repeat: the underlying assertion that led to this entire thread is little more than a lot of backslapping to ease the perpetually bruised ego of the Poles. Hell, that whole Guardian article is little more than such backslapping. So the cavalry didn't charge tanks, but just armored cars and mobile infantry. The Poles still had a terrible defense plan and lost even though they knew exactly what Germany was throwing at them.
Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.
ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius
Ummaka qinnassa nīk!
*MySmiley*
ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius
Ummaka qinnassa nīk!
*MySmiley*
The myth of Polish cavalry charging tanks
06/04/2011 09:31:09 AM
- 1227 Views
I find this slightly sad.
06/04/2011 10:23:08 AM
- 653 Views
Yeah, I know it's BS, but it's one of my favorrite weapons to use against Poles who harass me
06/04/2011 02:04:06 PM
- 1405 Views
are you often harrassed by Poles? *NM*
06/04/2011 02:14:18 PM
- 261 Views
Many people don't appreciate what Germany has suffered at the hands of Poland.
06/04/2011 03:00:56 PM
- 589 Views
yes but I still wonder about the modering gangs of Poles who are harrassing people
06/04/2011 04:51:58 PM
- 496 Views
I am!
06/04/2011 07:19:16 PM
- 596 Views
There is something scewy going on with my PC and it keeps reloading pages
06/04/2011 08:46:08 PM
- 456 Views
"A decisive role"? What is Ben Macintyre smoking? And there's something wrong with the picture.
06/04/2011 03:01:00 PM
- 699 Views
He makes a fair point
06/04/2011 03:46:14 PM
- 523 Views
In all fairness, no he doesn't.
06/04/2011 07:02:56 PM
- 634 Views
I don't agree - you are relying on speculation
06/04/2011 07:19:19 PM
- 592 Views
No, YOU are relying on speculation
06/04/2011 11:13:10 PM
- 1135 Views
I think you are a bit old to get away with the "No you are" line of argument
07/04/2011 11:16:50 AM
- 531 Views
Churchill saying "we won the war" is already a fantasy world.
07/04/2011 03:35:14 PM
- 551 Views
You think the allies lost? Erm... okay....
07/04/2011 04:41:49 PM
- 612 Views
I didn't say the Allies lost. I said the UK didn't really "win".
07/04/2011 05:31:10 PM
- 478 Views
You said Churchill was living in a fantasy land for saying we won, I believe?
08/04/2011 10:56:51 AM
- 606 Views
they still charged on a machine gun wielding infantry battalion ...
07/04/2011 02:06:02 AM
- 526 Views
They may have had better luck against the tanks
07/04/2011 03:38:40 AM
- 485 Views
Actually, no. The PzKpfw I didn't have a cannon, but rather a machine gun on the turret.
07/04/2011 04:58:20 AM
- 463 Views
My 8th grade history teacher was Polish and she embellished the myth.
07/04/2011 05:43:10 PM
- 511 Views