Churchill saying "we won the war" is already a fantasy world.
Tom Send a noteboard - 07/04/2011 03:35:14 PM
Cryptologists can crack virtually any code. We cracked the Japanese code as well as the German code. In fact, I think it's safe to say that there has never been a significant code that hasn't been broken.
As much as I hate to quote from wikipedia:
The exact influence of Ultra on the course of the war is debated; an oft-repeated assessment is that decryption of German ciphers hastened the end of the European war by two years.
Despite Winston Churchill's hyperbole on the matter, virtually no historian would support his assessment. Not only that, but it's arguable whether the UK won the war at all. It was bankrupted by the war, it lost its empire and faded into the shadow as the junior partner in a strategic alliance with its former colonies (the US). And the UK certainly would have lost the war without the US and USSR. It would have been possible for the UK to lose even without Operation Sea Lion, if Admiral Raeder's suggestions to Hitler had been taken each time they were made.
The Polish Enigma codebreakers did not really help the efforts in the convoys, by the way. Naval Enigma used different codes and it wasn't broken until the HMS Bulldog captured U-110. Even then, breaking the Naval Enigma keys was of only marginal assistance. The real help came in the form of radar and the American entry into the Atlantic convoy war prior to our formal declaration of war. When we look at convoys to the Soviets, the Enigma factor is negligible. PQ-17 is sufficient evidence that the Enigma codes did not help much.
You also say that Africa shut off Germany from the rest of the world, particularly its oil supply. This is not true, since 80% of Germany's oil came from Romania. It is true that if Africa had fallen to Rommel, the UK would be cut off from most of its oil, certainly.
Taking the hyperbole of people who were understandably praising the efforts of codebreakers throughout the war at face value, and then using that to say the Polish contribution to the war was "decisive", is a careless disregard for the actual facts of history and little more than a lot of backslapping to ease the perpetually bruised ego of the Poles.
As much as I hate to quote from wikipedia:
The exact influence of Ultra on the course of the war is debated; an oft-repeated assessment is that decryption of German ciphers hastened the end of the European war by two years.
Despite Winston Churchill's hyperbole on the matter, virtually no historian would support his assessment. Not only that, but it's arguable whether the UK won the war at all. It was bankrupted by the war, it lost its empire and faded into the shadow as the junior partner in a strategic alliance with its former colonies (the US). And the UK certainly would have lost the war without the US and USSR. It would have been possible for the UK to lose even without Operation Sea Lion, if Admiral Raeder's suggestions to Hitler had been taken each time they were made.
The Polish Enigma codebreakers did not really help the efforts in the convoys, by the way. Naval Enigma used different codes and it wasn't broken until the HMS Bulldog captured U-110. Even then, breaking the Naval Enigma keys was of only marginal assistance. The real help came in the form of radar and the American entry into the Atlantic convoy war prior to our formal declaration of war. When we look at convoys to the Soviets, the Enigma factor is negligible. PQ-17 is sufficient evidence that the Enigma codes did not help much.
You also say that Africa shut off Germany from the rest of the world, particularly its oil supply. This is not true, since 80% of Germany's oil came from Romania. It is true that if Africa had fallen to Rommel, the UK would be cut off from most of its oil, certainly.
Taking the hyperbole of people who were understandably praising the efforts of codebreakers throughout the war at face value, and then using that to say the Polish contribution to the war was "decisive", is a careless disregard for the actual facts of history and little more than a lot of backslapping to ease the perpetually bruised ego of the Poles.
Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.
ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius
Ummaka qinnassa nīk!
*MySmiley*
ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius
Ummaka qinnassa nīk!
*MySmiley*
The myth of Polish cavalry charging tanks
06/04/2011 09:31:09 AM
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I find this slightly sad.
06/04/2011 10:23:08 AM
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Yeah, I know it's BS, but it's one of my favorrite weapons to use against Poles who harass me
06/04/2011 02:04:06 PM
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are you often harrassed by Poles? *NM*
06/04/2011 02:14:18 PM
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Many people don't appreciate what Germany has suffered at the hands of Poland.
06/04/2011 03:00:56 PM
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yes but I still wonder about the modering gangs of Poles who are harrassing people
06/04/2011 04:51:58 PM
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I am!
06/04/2011 07:19:16 PM
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There is something scewy going on with my PC and it keeps reloading pages
06/04/2011 08:46:08 PM
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"A decisive role"? What is Ben Macintyre smoking? And there's something wrong with the picture.
06/04/2011 03:01:00 PM
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He makes a fair point
06/04/2011 03:46:14 PM
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In all fairness, no he doesn't.
06/04/2011 07:02:56 PM
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I don't agree - you are relying on speculation
06/04/2011 07:19:19 PM
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No, YOU are relying on speculation
06/04/2011 11:13:10 PM
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I think you are a bit old to get away with the "No you are" line of argument
07/04/2011 11:16:50 AM
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Churchill saying "we won the war" is already a fantasy world.
07/04/2011 03:35:14 PM
- 551 Views
You think the allies lost? Erm... okay....
07/04/2011 04:41:49 PM
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I didn't say the Allies lost. I said the UK didn't really "win".
07/04/2011 05:31:10 PM
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You said Churchill was living in a fantasy land for saying we won, I believe?
08/04/2011 10:56:51 AM
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they still charged on a machine gun wielding infantry battalion ...
07/04/2011 02:06:02 AM
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They may have had better luck against the tanks
07/04/2011 03:38:40 AM
- 483 Views
Actually, no. The PzKpfw I didn't have a cannon, but rather a machine gun on the turret.
07/04/2011 04:58:20 AM
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My 8th grade history teacher was Polish and she embellished the myth.
07/04/2011 05:43:10 PM
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