The material universe precludes a purely natural cause.
Joel Send a noteboard - 18/09/2009 12:04:16 PM
It just doesn't work. The Second Law of Thermodynamics says that if the universe were compressed to a singularity at some point in the past, it should've stayed that way. To put it in Newtonian terms (and I realize the dangers there) an object at rest tends to stay at rest unless acted upon by an outside force, and "the universe" by definition precludes any force from outside, because there IS no "outside. " Entropy is always increasing in a closed system, and the universe is the ultimate closed system, so the suggestion it could naturally acquire kinetic energy when it had none initially is just bad science. Rebuttals of this come in two forms:
1) Concoct a hypothetical and unverifiable scheme wherein the known universe is just part of a larger one that supplies it energy, so that entropy decreases here while increasing at a greater rate in some other mystical place we can't perceive. Call it "the Flying Spaghetti Monsters pasta bowl. "
2) Vaguely and sagely assert that "we don't know much about the early universe; generally accepted laws of science may not apply. " Then, um, why are we trying to investigate it scientifically? If fundamental principles of physics are so deeply flawed, isn't that an argument AGAINST rather than FOR current physics models of the universes origins?
Origins are, after all, the key problem, because thanks to entropy everything decays, all motion eventually ceases, and once that happens there's nothing possible to kick start it again. Not under a purely natural model, and there's the rub: The materialist view criticizes spiritual ones for not playing by the laws of physics, but supernatural theories by nature are not obligated to do so; natural ones very much are.
Beyond that logic most of my evidence is anecdotal, like the time a crackhead plunged a knife into my gut a dozen times or so and couldn't even put a hole in my shirt, about a week after my mom had a dream she was in a hospital being told I was stabbed, a dream so vivid she called to wake me up and tell me. Or the dreams she had as a teen about a relative dying, shortly before they unexpectedly did just that. Or the... thing... that showed up in my bedroom door one night as a very small child and started trying to talk to me, then promptly disappeared when my parents rushed out and hit the hall light. "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy. " To assume that because something can't be directly observed it doesn't exist is rather conceited, IMHO, particularly when purely natural models are so inadequate to full explanations of reality.
Ultimately, even when I wasn't a Christian, I was a Deist simply because a First Cause is inescapable, an infinite regression as impossible by physical law as by logic (though on the latter point see The Metaphysics Book II, Part 2; it's short, but does away with infinite regression nicely) and because since entropy makes an eternal unbeginning physical realm impossible, well, as Doyle says, when we have eliminated the impossible, that which remains, however improbable, must be the truth.
1) Concoct a hypothetical and unverifiable scheme wherein the known universe is just part of a larger one that supplies it energy, so that entropy decreases here while increasing at a greater rate in some other mystical place we can't perceive. Call it "the Flying Spaghetti Monsters pasta bowl. "
2) Vaguely and sagely assert that "we don't know much about the early universe; generally accepted laws of science may not apply. " Then, um, why are we trying to investigate it scientifically? If fundamental principles of physics are so deeply flawed, isn't that an argument AGAINST rather than FOR current physics models of the universes origins?
Origins are, after all, the key problem, because thanks to entropy everything decays, all motion eventually ceases, and once that happens there's nothing possible to kick start it again. Not under a purely natural model, and there's the rub: The materialist view criticizes spiritual ones for not playing by the laws of physics, but supernatural theories by nature are not obligated to do so; natural ones very much are.
Beyond that logic most of my evidence is anecdotal, like the time a crackhead plunged a knife into my gut a dozen times or so and couldn't even put a hole in my shirt, about a week after my mom had a dream she was in a hospital being told I was stabbed, a dream so vivid she called to wake me up and tell me. Or the dreams she had as a teen about a relative dying, shortly before they unexpectedly did just that. Or the... thing... that showed up in my bedroom door one night as a very small child and started trying to talk to me, then promptly disappeared when my parents rushed out and hit the hall light. "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy. " To assume that because something can't be directly observed it doesn't exist is rather conceited, IMHO, particularly when purely natural models are so inadequate to full explanations of reality.
Ultimately, even when I wasn't a Christian, I was a Deist simply because a First Cause is inescapable, an infinite regression as impossible by physical law as by logic (though on the latter point see The Metaphysics Book II, Part 2; it's short, but does away with infinite regression nicely) and because since entropy makes an eternal unbeginning physical realm impossible, well, as Doyle says, when we have eliminated the impossible, that which remains, however improbable, must be the truth.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Do you think there's some kind of spiritual substance in the universe?
14/09/2009 02:42:22 PM
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On a gut level, I think all substance is teleologically tied to one or more kinds of consciousness.
14/09/2009 04:03:31 PM
- 556 Views
aaah but who says we can percieve all there is to percieve in relation to our persons?
14/09/2009 04:14:08 PM
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But merely positing a soul (as a spiritual substance) doesn't actually explain anything.
14/09/2009 07:46:35 PM
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i'm not saying that all inexplained qualities are due to "soul"
14/09/2009 07:50:27 PM
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Re: i'm not saying that all inexplained qualities are due to "soul"
14/09/2009 08:05:41 PM
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I think there is definitely a spiritual force that underlies the unity of all things
14/09/2009 06:11:01 PM
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Rum.
14/09/2009 08:25:46 PM
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YES! *NM*
16/09/2009 02:10:55 PM
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How are we not married? *NM*
19/09/2009 04:10:13 AM
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Not the way I'd put it, as jh notes, but unquestionably.
15/09/2009 03:17:22 PM
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The material universe precludes a purely natural cause.
18/09/2009 12:04:16 PM
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One little correction
20/09/2009 12:34:13 AM
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That makes it more complex, but I agree the same basic problem persists.
07/10/2009 12:11:07 PM
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