So initiating violence is legitimate protest provided you choose the right target? I strongly disagree. You've compared this to the American Revolution; when John Adams defended the British soldiers involved in the Boston Massacre his fellow colonists had his strong sympathy, yet he passionately argued for the soldiers acquittal in part because nearly every witness agreed THOSE protesters hurled missiles at the soldiers long before anyone was shot. Thus he argued they had the right to defend themselves with force and that even a documented history of animosity between specific soldiers and specific slain protesters made it manslaughter at the most, not murder. You can't initiate violence then cry foul when it's resisted with superior violence.
Erm, Joel? You have compared this to the American Revolution. Not I.
Nice try though. Fair enough, I did, at that.
It's rather more than inconvenient to those likely to be brutally repressed, imprisoned, tortured and/or executed for being:
1) Women who won't wear a burka,
2) Egyptians more interested than Egypt than a pan-Islamic theocracy,
3) Non-Muslims,
4) Heterodox Muslims and
5) Westerners in Egypt
For them a Muslim Brotherhood government even you concede is probable means far more of what supposedly justifies Mubaraks violent overthrow.
1) Women who won't wear a burka,
2) Egyptians more interested than Egypt than a pan-Islamic theocracy,
3) Non-Muslims,
4) Heterodox Muslims and
5) Westerners in Egypt
For them a Muslim Brotherhood government even you concede is probable means far more of what supposedly justifies Mubaraks violent overthrow.
I realize that this might be a difficult concept for people used to American politics, but since you're not living in the US anymore: there's a rather large difference between a government controlled by the Muslim Brotherhood, and one in which the Muslim Brotherhood has far more absolute power than Mubarak ever has, as they would need to implement anything even remotely like your ludicrous list there. And no American government has had that kind of power, either, so so much for your only excuse.
No, but seriously, you'll understand what I meant by the US comment if you look at Lebanon's recent politics. Coalition politics being what they are, Hizbullah is now in a position where one can fairly say that they control the government - but they don't have a majority on their own, they have to be careful how they wield their influence as they cannot afford to lose their coalition partners. In truly democratic elections in Egypt, I believe the Muslim Brotherhood could obtain an influential position and quite possibly exert similar influence over the government - and so I agree there would likely be inconveniences, and more than that for Israel and the American military-industrial complex - but nothing like an absolute majority. Not that they'd do anything like what you said, or could, even if they did have an absolute majority.
Why wouldn't they? If they can establish a majority, rather than a mere plurality that would require a coalition government, that would give them the reigns of power as surely as it did Mubarak. America hasn't had anything like what I described, no, nor anything like Mubarak, but Egypt is not America, as you so rightly note. A LOT of things can and routinely do happen there that are inconceivable in the States, and pretending that Mubarak is the only one willing or able to do that to Egypt is not only disingenuous but dangerous. If they can form a majority government they'll have both the means and the manpower to create a secret police and army every bit as brutal as anything Mubarak ever perpetrated. They may have renounced non-violence, but SOMEONE has tried to kill Mubarak no less than six times.
From what I'VE there's little reason to believe Egypt is transitioning to democracy, incrementally or otherwise. Before you condemn my opposition to something why don't we verify its actual existence, eh? Once again, I'm not saying I hope Mubaraks regime survives this, but that IF a successor regime would be far more authoritarian, brutal and insensitive to free expression and democracy, IF it would simply make sectarian violence in the streets with government sanction the norm, I hope Mubaraks regime averts that through survival, because the undeniable blood on his hands is less than his successors would have. I'd love a truly free and democratic Egpyt, consider it infinitely preferable to Mubarak, but am not sure that's on the table; there's more evidence it's a choice between the extent and leaders of continued brutal violence and repression. IF that assessment is wrong I'll be the first to cheer true democracy, but democracy is more than simply removing one tyrant in a country boiling with violent xenophobia. Even if I had a vote I wouldn't cast it for any of the contestants here because I'm not convinced any merit it.
Of course Egypt isn't transitioning to democracy. But as of last week, a process has started that might lead to the fall of the dictatorship and a subsequent transition to democracy. Might, of course, not necessarily "will".
As for violent xenophobia, I can't claim to have seen much of that in Egypt, either before the riots or during them. That's not to say no foreigners at all have been bothered or even assaulted, but I'm not seeing any xenophobic patterns. Are you just making that part up like the parts about the Muslim Brotherhood earlier?
I'm basing it on one incident I saw referenced at Bens link, of people holed up in a hotel as protesters "demonstrated" by ripping apart the lower floors as staff begged them to leave and occupants worriedly wondered where the awful evil police were because they feared for their lives due to nothing Mubarak perpetrated. "Might" is a big word, and whether I support what's coming or Mubarak depends entirely on what "might" actually IS in the coming months and years. Extrajudicial imprisonment, let alone murder, is hardly something I condone, but if we shouldn't judge a prospective MB government by Western standards (as I'm sure they'd be the first to agree) we shouldn't judge Mubarak by them either. The fact remains that some of the prisoners BELONG in prison, and, while torture is never excusable, the world would be a better place if Saddam Hussein and Iman Al Zawahiri had remained in those wretched Egyptian prisons until the day they died.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
This message last edited by Joel on 04/02/2011 at 11:40:10 PM
If anyone's looking for up-to-date info on what's going on in Egypt
- 28/01/2011 08:08:31 PM
624 Views
Clarify: Democracy fans should favor the protesters because they have more violent thugs,right?
- 28/01/2011 11:37:48 PM
474 Views
and socialism fans should favor the violent dicator since he can bring order and subsidies
- 29/01/2011 12:16:37 AM
341 Views
He mainly seems to bring close diplomatic ties to the US and alternatives to the Muslim Brotherhood
- 29/01/2011 12:59:48 AM
493 Views
You might want to do a quick check on the political situation in Egypt at this time.
- 29/01/2011 11:37:02 AM
407 Views
I've done a quick one; it makes me question whether government by the protesters would be better.
- 29/01/2011 11:44:10 PM
377 Views
It's a fairly simple matter, really.
- 29/01/2011 11:52:41 AM
416 Views
The trouble with free elections is: They're free.
- 29/01/2011 11:53:22 PM
327 Views
A vote for dictatorship and against democracy it is. Just checking.
- 30/01/2011 12:08:41 AM
367 Views
I haven't cast a vote.
- 30/01/2011 02:02:11 AM
346 Views
Not one that counts no, but still.
- 30/01/2011 01:11:59 PM
813 Views
None of any kind.
- 31/01/2011 12:10:07 AM
387 Views
Since I'm clearly a glutton for punishment...
- 01/02/2011 06:49:38 PM
738 Views
Re: Since I'm clearly a glutton for punishment...
- 04/02/2011 11:38:10 PM
502 Views
so you support tyranny of others if it makes things more comfortable for you?
- 30/01/2011 05:15:01 AM
388 Views
I oppose brutal oppression; I'm unconvinced either side in this will end it, thus I withhold support
- 30/01/2011 05:21:37 AM
332 Views
some times it is black and white
- 31/01/2011 12:37:36 AM
330 Views
I fully support their right to demand democracy; I don't expect they'll get it, whatever happens.
- 31/01/2011 01:45:23 AM
528 Views
You're not seriously expecting them to do their revolution American Revolution-style, are you?
- 29/01/2011 11:28:31 AM
392 Views
I think terrorizing innocents and torching buildings is a poor way to claim the moral highground.
- 29/01/2011 11:32:19 PM
394 Views
British Colonialism wasn't a walk in the park
- 30/01/2011 03:53:58 AM
347 Views
Comparatively speaking, yes, it really was. Or at least in the US - not always so much in Asia.
- 30/01/2011 10:42:53 AM
336 Views
Re: Comparatively speaking, yes, it really was. Or at least in the US - not always so much in Asia.
- 30/01/2011 02:32:52 PM
390 Views
You can't be serious.
- 30/01/2011 03:07:18 PM
325 Views
Pretty serious
- 30/01/2011 04:52:24 PM
481 Views
Re: Pretty serious
- 30/01/2011 05:11:50 PM
376 Views
This is ridicolous
- 30/01/2011 05:31:31 PM
436 Views
I wouldn't normally think this necessary with you, but okay: let's go back and see what I said.
- 30/01/2011 06:34:09 PM
406 Views
you forget that it was supposdely thier own citizens the British were abusing.
- 31/01/2011 12:39:33 AM
429 Views
Sure, but organized into hostile armies. A rather different matter, that. *NM*
- 31/01/2011 09:46:25 PM
149 Views
I dont know if this will help you understand what is going on there
- 30/01/2011 02:45:41 AM
363 Views
Yikes indeed
- 29/01/2011 03:57:25 AM
388 Views
Apparently Egypt blocked access to Facebook, Twitter and some other websites.
- 29/01/2011 11:38:46 AM
348 Views
Heh, her update was basically "Thanks for turning facebook back on, Egypt."
- 29/01/2011 06:36:49 PM
306 Views
There seems to be some big misconceptions about the Egyption crisis
- 31/01/2011 11:52:37 PM
624 Views