So initiating violence is legitimate protest provided you choose the right target? I strongly disagree. You've compared this to the American Revolution; when John Adams defended the British soldiers involved in the Boston Massacre his fellow colonists had his strong sympathy, yet he passionately argued for the soldiers acquittal in part because nearly every witness agreed THOSE protesters hurled missiles at the soldiers long before anyone was shot. Thus he argued they had the right to defend themselves with force and that even a documented history of animosity between specific soldiers and specific slain protesters made it manslaughter at the most, not murder. You can't initiate violence then cry foul when it's resisted with superior violence.
Erm, Joel? You have compared this to the American Revolution. Not I.
Nice try though. It's rather more than inconvenient to those likely to be brutally repressed, imprisoned, tortured and/or executed for being:
1) Women who won't wear a burka,
2) Egyptians more interested than Egypt than a pan-Islamic theocracy,
3) Non-Muslims,
4) Heterodox Muslims and
5) Westerners in Egypt
For them a Muslim Brotherhood government even you concede is probable means far more of what supposedly justifies Mubaraks violent overthrow.
I realize that this might be a difficult concept for people used to American politics, but since you're not living in the US anymore: there's a rather large difference between a government controlled by the Muslim Brotherhood, and one in which the Muslim Brotherhood has far more absolute power than Mubarak ever has, as they would need to implement anything even remotely like your ludicrous list there. And no American government has had that kind of power, either, so so much for your only excuse.
No, but seriously, you'll understand what I meant by the US comment if you look at Lebanon's recent politics. Coalition politics being what they are, Hizbullah is now in a position where one can fairly say that they control the government - but they don't have a majority on their own, they have to be careful how they wield their influence as they cannot afford to lose their coalition partners. In truly democratic elections in Egypt, I believe the Muslim Brotherhood could obtain an influential position and quite possibly exert similar influence over the government - and so I agree there would likely be inconveniences, and more than that for Israel and the American military-industrial complex - but nothing like an absolute majority. Not that they'd do anything like what you said, or could, even if they did have an absolute majority.
From what I'VE there's little reason to believe Egypt is transitioning to democracy, incrementally or otherwise. Before you condemn my opposition to something why don't we verify its actual existence, eh? Once again, I'm not saying I hope Mubaraks regime survives this, but that IF a successor regime would be far more authoritarian, brutal and insensitive to free expression and democracy, IF it would simply make sectarian violence in the streets with government sanction the norm, I hope Mubaraks regime averts that through survival, because the undeniable blood on his hands is less than his successors would have. I'd love a truly free and democratic Egpyt, consider it infinitely preferable to Mubarak, but am not sure that's on the table; there's more evidence it's a choice between the extent and leaders of continued brutal violence and repression. IF that assessment is wrong I'll be the first to cheer true democracy, but democracy is more than simply removing one tyrant in a country boiling with violent xenophobia. Even if I had a vote I wouldn't cast it for any of the contestants here because I'm not convinced any merit it.
Of course Egypt isn't transitioning to democracy. But as of last week, a process has started that might lead to the fall of the dictatorship and a subsequent transition to democracy. Might, of course, not necessarily "will".
As for violent xenophobia, I can't claim to have seen much of that in Egypt, either before the riots or during them. That's not to say no foreigners at all have been bothered or even assaulted, but I'm not seeing any xenophobic patterns. Are you just making that part up like the parts about the Muslim Brotherhood earlier?
If anyone's looking for up-to-date info on what's going on in Egypt
- 28/01/2011 08:08:31 PM
622 Views
Clarify: Democracy fans should favor the protesters because they have more violent thugs,right?
- 28/01/2011 11:37:48 PM
473 Views
and socialism fans should favor the violent dicator since he can bring order and subsidies
- 29/01/2011 12:16:37 AM
341 Views
He mainly seems to bring close diplomatic ties to the US and alternatives to the Muslim Brotherhood
- 29/01/2011 12:59:48 AM
492 Views
You might want to do a quick check on the political situation in Egypt at this time.
- 29/01/2011 11:37:02 AM
406 Views
I've done a quick one; it makes me question whether government by the protesters would be better.
- 29/01/2011 11:44:10 PM
377 Views
It's a fairly simple matter, really.
- 29/01/2011 11:52:41 AM
416 Views
The trouble with free elections is: They're free.
- 29/01/2011 11:53:22 PM
326 Views
A vote for dictatorship and against democracy it is. Just checking.
- 30/01/2011 12:08:41 AM
366 Views
I haven't cast a vote.
- 30/01/2011 02:02:11 AM
345 Views
Not one that counts no, but still.
- 30/01/2011 01:11:59 PM
812 Views
None of any kind.
- 31/01/2011 12:10:07 AM
387 Views
Since I'm clearly a glutton for punishment...
- 01/02/2011 06:49:38 PM
738 Views
so you support tyranny of others if it makes things more comfortable for you?
- 30/01/2011 05:15:01 AM
387 Views
I oppose brutal oppression; I'm unconvinced either side in this will end it, thus I withhold support
- 30/01/2011 05:21:37 AM
332 Views
some times it is black and white
- 31/01/2011 12:37:36 AM
330 Views
I fully support their right to demand democracy; I don't expect they'll get it, whatever happens.
- 31/01/2011 01:45:23 AM
527 Views
You're not seriously expecting them to do their revolution American Revolution-style, are you?
- 29/01/2011 11:28:31 AM
392 Views
I think terrorizing innocents and torching buildings is a poor way to claim the moral highground.
- 29/01/2011 11:32:19 PM
394 Views
British Colonialism wasn't a walk in the park
- 30/01/2011 03:53:58 AM
346 Views
Comparatively speaking, yes, it really was. Or at least in the US - not always so much in Asia.
- 30/01/2011 10:42:53 AM
336 Views
Re: Comparatively speaking, yes, it really was. Or at least in the US - not always so much in Asia.
- 30/01/2011 02:32:52 PM
390 Views
You can't be serious.
- 30/01/2011 03:07:18 PM
324 Views
Pretty serious
- 30/01/2011 04:52:24 PM
481 Views
Re: Pretty serious
- 30/01/2011 05:11:50 PM
374 Views
This is ridicolous
- 30/01/2011 05:31:31 PM
436 Views
I wouldn't normally think this necessary with you, but okay: let's go back and see what I said.
- 30/01/2011 06:34:09 PM
406 Views
you forget that it was supposdely thier own citizens the British were abusing.
- 31/01/2011 12:39:33 AM
429 Views
Sure, but organized into hostile armies. A rather different matter, that. *NM*
- 31/01/2011 09:46:25 PM
149 Views
I dont know if this will help you understand what is going on there
- 30/01/2011 02:45:41 AM
362 Views
Yikes indeed
- 29/01/2011 03:57:25 AM
388 Views
Apparently Egypt blocked access to Facebook, Twitter and some other websites.
- 29/01/2011 11:38:46 AM
347 Views
Heh, her update was basically "Thanks for turning facebook back on, Egypt."
- 29/01/2011 06:36:49 PM
305 Views
There seems to be some big misconceptions about the Egyption crisis
- 31/01/2011 11:52:37 PM
624 Views