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I fully support their right to demand democracy; I don't expect they'll get it, whatever happens. Joel Send a noteboard - 31/01/2011 01:45:23 AM
You can make it a conditional support but in the end either you support people's right to demand democracy or you don't. If you only support democracy when people make the choices you like then you really only support the illusion of democracy.

Yes, that's what I mean by "the troube with free elections is: They're free". It's an aphorism I learned watching the Sandinistas, the Contras, the Shining Path and, of course, the democratically elected Iraqi President the CIA helped Saddam Hussein replace for the great crime of wanting to nationalize the oil industry. Of course, that's only a few in a long list; you could apply it to our Cold War sponsorship of both Nasser and his heir Mubarak, too, or the military goverment we maintain in Pakistan because bin Laden would win any truly free election by a landslide. If I thought this were even LIKELY to be another case like those I'd side with the protesters in a moment.

Unfortunately, it's not. If Mubarak goes down, which seems probably, everyone agrees the Muslim Brotherhood will run the next government. They almost literally invented Islamic terrorism, so while I don't expect them to oppress their own members the way Mubarak did, I DO expect them to be at least as brutal against women who lack a burqa, men who aren't Muslim, Muslims who don't subscribe to their own special brand of violent xenophobic Islam and Westerners. In short, I don't expect the heirs of man who listed individual liberty chief among his complaints against the West to install democracy, and if 51% of the minority allowed to vote endorse state sponsored international AND DOMESTIC terror I don't call it democracy. Mubaraks likely sucessors won't empty the torture chambers, they'll fill them, and they'll precisely BECAUSE they want to disenfranchise and brutalize the vast majority of Egyptians.

Now, if all the folks paid for the right political analyses are wrong and someone like Al Zawahiri doesn't institute an Egyptian reign of terror, great; I'll be glad to see democracy flourish in Mubaraks absence. I'm not holding my breath though; Mubarak's a thug, but there's a reason so many Al Qaeda members and leaders were and are in his prisons, horrid as they are. Sometimes it's black and white, but I don't think this one of those rare occasions.
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This message last edited by Joel on 31/01/2011 at 01:48:23 AM
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If anyone's looking for up-to-date info on what's going on in Egypt - 28/01/2011 08:08:31 PM 624 Views
I've been following it on the BBC website. - 28/01/2011 09:49:47 PM 358 Views
Clarify: Democracy fans should favor the protesters because they have more violent thugs,right? - 28/01/2011 11:37:48 PM 474 Views
and socialism fans should favor the violent dicator since he can bring order and subsidies - 29/01/2011 12:16:37 AM 341 Views
He mainly seems to bring close diplomatic ties to the US and alternatives to the Muslim Brotherhood - 29/01/2011 12:59:48 AM 492 Views
You might want to do a quick check on the political situation in Egypt at this time. - 29/01/2011 11:37:02 AM 407 Views
I've done a quick one; it makes me question whether government by the protesters would be better. - 29/01/2011 11:44:10 PM 377 Views
They're not saying "We want to rule". - 30/01/2011 01:26:03 AM 389 Views
SOMEONE is going to rule. - 30/01/2011 02:16:43 AM 411 Views
It's a fairly simple matter, really. - 29/01/2011 11:52:41 AM 416 Views
The trouble with free elections is: They're free. - 29/01/2011 11:53:22 PM 326 Views
A vote for dictatorship and against democracy it is. Just checking. - 30/01/2011 12:08:41 AM 367 Views
I haven't cast a vote. - 30/01/2011 02:02:11 AM 346 Views
Not one that counts no, but still. - 30/01/2011 01:11:59 PM 812 Views
None of any kind. - 31/01/2011 12:10:07 AM 387 Views
Since I'm clearly a glutton for punishment... - 01/02/2011 06:49:38 PM 738 Views
Re: Since I'm clearly a glutton for punishment... - 04/02/2011 11:38:10 PM 501 Views
so you support tyranny of others if it makes things more comfortable for you? - 30/01/2011 05:15:01 AM 388 Views
I oppose brutal oppression; I'm unconvinced either side in this will end it, thus I withhold support - 30/01/2011 05:21:37 AM 332 Views
some times it is black and white - 31/01/2011 12:37:36 AM 330 Views
I fully support their right to demand democracy; I don't expect they'll get it, whatever happens. - 31/01/2011 01:45:23 AM 528 Views
You're not seriously expecting them to do their revolution American Revolution-style, are you? - 29/01/2011 11:28:31 AM 392 Views
British Colonialism wasn't a walk in the park - 30/01/2011 03:53:58 AM 346 Views
Comparatively speaking, yes, it really was. Or at least in the US - not always so much in Asia. - 30/01/2011 10:42:53 AM 336 Views
Re: Comparatively speaking, yes, it really was. Or at least in the US - not always so much in Asia. - 30/01/2011 02:32:52 PM 390 Views
You can't be serious. - 30/01/2011 03:07:18 PM 325 Views
Pretty serious - 30/01/2011 04:52:24 PM 481 Views
Re: Pretty serious - 30/01/2011 05:11:50 PM 376 Views
This is ridicolous - 30/01/2011 05:31:31 PM 436 Views
you forget that it was supposdely thier own citizens the British were abusing. - 31/01/2011 12:39:33 AM 429 Views
Sure, but organized into hostile armies. A rather different matter, that. *NM* - 31/01/2011 09:46:25 PM 149 Views
true - 31/01/2011 10:04:38 PM 337 Views
Your comparison is very odd - 30/01/2011 04:38:16 PM 418 Views
Why? - 30/01/2011 05:02:47 PM 368 Views
I dont know if this will help you understand what is going on there - 30/01/2011 02:45:41 AM 363 Views
I never called anyone an animal. - 30/01/2011 04:50:12 AM 451 Views
Yikes indeed - 29/01/2011 03:57:25 AM 388 Views
There seems to be some big misconceptions about the Egyption crisis - 31/01/2011 11:52:37 PM 624 Views

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