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I never called anyone an animal. Joel Send a noteboard - 30/01/2011 04:50:12 AM
But my close Egyptian friends have family down there in the protests. In fact one of my best friends cousins who are lawyers helped organize the protest at Tahrir Square. They are NOT the ones looting. It is the secret police (in plain clothes) that is doing this to make the protesters look bad. Protesters as young as 13 years of age have made human shields around the museum and other places to stop the looting and other bullshit certain people are trying to pull (most of the looters that have been caught have police ID's). Its easy to sit here and judge and say that they should be protesting peacefully and not violently but even the peaceful protests were met with violence from the police. In Egypt you are not allowed to protest against the government, Period. This is a government that has tortured, killed and imprisoned its people for decades and the people have had enough.

The secret police I am talking beat a british journalist quite badly today and trashed his camera. there is video footage of a protester being shot in the back while running away from the police. These protesters are fucking heroes not animals like you seem to think.

Maybe these links will help you learn some more about the situation.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/26/egypt-protests

http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2011/1/29/live_from_the_egyptian_revolution_by_sharif_abdel_kouddous
This link has been updated near-continuously for a while now.

Yikes.

I mean, I'm no fan of one party authoritarian states sustained by the military and corrupt businessmen, but if Mubarak is opposing people who torch buildings and storm hotels while guests huddle in hiding wondering where the police are it's hard for me to question his response. This isn't the people peaceably assembling to petition for a redress of grievances, it's a national riot. Virtually any Western democracy faced with indiscrimate violence, possibly even killing, though it's hard to be sure from the little chaotic info I've seen, would declare martial law, and with that in mind Mubaraks response so far doesn't seem too unreasonable. I have no illusions about his nobility, but let's keep things in perspective and recall that neither the Reign of Terror nor the Bolshevik Revolution significantly improved things for the oppressed; it just meant they were oppressed at least as much and more violently. The relevance I see to those terms, even in an advanced modern nation like Egypt, is precisely the sort of thing I have in mind when I suggest the Mid-East isn't capable of full participation in 21st Century international relations.

So, who wants to clue me in on what I'm missing here...?

The links were helpful, but don't seem to change much: Violent thuggery is being met with violent thuggery; I still see no reason to take sides, to the extent it's even my place to do so. Whether peaceful protests are legal in Egypt is largely irrelevant to the very violent riots occurring now. The journalist at the first link sounds like he could benefit from a little objectivity as well; if he were covering protesters in the States and a "few hundred rallied in front of me... spying an empty police truck in the road, several people began to smash it up, eventually tipping it over and setting it on fire" you can bet your bottom police wold try to disperse them with tear gas. I'm not sure how that qualifies as an "attack" on the central square though. I'd expect an attack to use something more forceful than tear gas, particularly since we already know live ammunition has been used against rioters. On the other hand, if that was limited to the government officials "holed up inside" the Interior Ministry as rioters approached and "in the background, the smoking, blackened shell of Hosni Mubarak’s National Democratic Party headquarters served as an ominous reminder of their intentions" (from your second link) I can't say I blame them: If some of the same "protesters" who'd been throwing Molotov cocktails at police approached the place I were "holed up" in sight of the smoldering wreckage they left of my party HQ I'd probably fire on them, too; that's a fairly common response from cornered people afraid for their lives.

Yet again, I'm not excusing Mubarak for anything, I'm simply saying that if all the analyst are right to expectat about a successor government from the Muslim Brotherhood, a group that almost singlehandedly created modern Islamist terrorism and thus prompted creation of the very emergency powers on which Mubarak depends, that doesn't look much better and will likely be worse. Just the links already in this thread offered the story of terrified hotel guests listening to protesters downstairs and WISHING the police were there as hotel staff tried to make them leave; if those were actually the brutal Egyptian secret police trying to defame legitimate protesters do you think they'd have been convinced to just leave? You can't excuse indiscriminate violence by saying, "but they do it, too!" Mubarak's violence is unconscionable, but that from the protesters is laudable? Why, because the latter have a majority? That's the only justification that MIGHT be claimed for doing the very thing one so forcefully opposes.

Protesters protecting national treasures with their bodies is laudable, yes; if there were of that and less violence it would be a lot easier to say which side I want to come out on top here. The first bit of encouraging news I've seen is paragraph at your second link:
There is a great sense of pride that this is a leaderless movement organized by the people. A genuine popular revolt. It was not organized by opposition movements, though they have now joined the protesters in Tahrir. The Muslim Brotherhood was out in full force today. At one point they began chanting "Allah Akbar" only to be drowned out by much louder chants of "Muslim, Christian, we are all Egyptian."

That's very promising and I hope it holds up; nationalism, Egyptian or otherwise, is as much anathema to the Muslim Brotherhood as are the West, womens rights, non-Muslim rights, rights of any Muslims considered "heretical" and, in general, the individual rights their revered Qutb found so offensive in America. Put another way, the Democracy Now icon is very ironic for a site so favorable to riots every analyst I've seen says will put the Muslim Brotherhood in charge if successful: It's a statue of a WOMAN symbolizing the NATIONAL principle of INDIVIDUAL LIBERTY in a WESTERN state, no less than four things Mubaraks most likely successors are dedicated to destroying by force. So, once again, if real democracy (e.g. with the principle of individual liberty without which it's an empty shell under Mubarak or anyone) is in the offing, I'm all for it. Torching buildings, trashing police cars and throwing firebombs don't convince me that's the case though. The way this almost invariably goes is that one authoritarian regime is replaced with another (see: Iran). I'd love to be wrong in that expectation, but I've only just now seen any evidence to that effect, and there's still more on the other side.

I'm not saying Mubarak's a saint, merely that I see no evidence most of his opponents are better or deserve my endorsement. Not my call, regardless.
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If anyone's looking for up-to-date info on what's going on in Egypt - 28/01/2011 08:08:31 PM 624 Views
I've been following it on the BBC website. - 28/01/2011 09:49:47 PM 359 Views
Clarify: Democracy fans should favor the protesters because they have more violent thugs,right? - 28/01/2011 11:37:48 PM 475 Views
and socialism fans should favor the violent dicator since he can bring order and subsidies - 29/01/2011 12:16:37 AM 343 Views
He mainly seems to bring close diplomatic ties to the US and alternatives to the Muslim Brotherhood - 29/01/2011 12:59:48 AM 494 Views
You might want to do a quick check on the political situation in Egypt at this time. - 29/01/2011 11:37:02 AM 408 Views
I've done a quick one; it makes me question whether government by the protesters would be better. - 29/01/2011 11:44:10 PM 378 Views
They're not saying "We want to rule". - 30/01/2011 01:26:03 AM 390 Views
SOMEONE is going to rule. - 30/01/2011 02:16:43 AM 413 Views
It's a fairly simple matter, really. - 29/01/2011 11:52:41 AM 417 Views
The trouble with free elections is: They're free. - 29/01/2011 11:53:22 PM 327 Views
A vote for dictatorship and against democracy it is. Just checking. - 30/01/2011 12:08:41 AM 368 Views
I haven't cast a vote. - 30/01/2011 02:02:11 AM 347 Views
Not one that counts no, but still. - 30/01/2011 01:11:59 PM 814 Views
None of any kind. - 31/01/2011 12:10:07 AM 389 Views
Since I'm clearly a glutton for punishment... - 01/02/2011 06:49:38 PM 739 Views
Re: Since I'm clearly a glutton for punishment... - 04/02/2011 11:38:10 PM 502 Views
You're not seriously expecting them to do their revolution American Revolution-style, are you? - 29/01/2011 11:28:31 AM 394 Views
British Colonialism wasn't a walk in the park - 30/01/2011 03:53:58 AM 347 Views
Comparatively speaking, yes, it really was. Or at least in the US - not always so much in Asia. - 30/01/2011 10:42:53 AM 338 Views
Re: Comparatively speaking, yes, it really was. Or at least in the US - not always so much in Asia. - 30/01/2011 02:32:52 PM 392 Views
You can't be serious. - 30/01/2011 03:07:18 PM 326 Views
Pretty serious - 30/01/2011 04:52:24 PM 483 Views
Re: Pretty serious - 30/01/2011 05:11:50 PM 376 Views
This is ridicolous - 30/01/2011 05:31:31 PM 438 Views
you forget that it was supposdely thier own citizens the British were abusing. - 31/01/2011 12:39:33 AM 431 Views
Sure, but organized into hostile armies. A rather different matter, that. *NM* - 31/01/2011 09:46:25 PM 149 Views
true - 31/01/2011 10:04:38 PM 339 Views
Your comparison is very odd - 30/01/2011 04:38:16 PM 420 Views
Why? - 30/01/2011 05:02:47 PM 370 Views
I dont know if this will help you understand what is going on there - 30/01/2011 02:45:41 AM 364 Views
I never called anyone an animal. - 30/01/2011 04:50:12 AM 453 Views
Yikes indeed - 29/01/2011 03:57:25 AM 390 Views
There seems to be some big misconceptions about the Egyption crisis - 31/01/2011 11:52:37 PM 624 Views

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