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Actually, that first line is my problem with Universalism Joel Send a noteboard - 28/01/2011 01:54:00 AM
Your post really only makes sense if you treat our time on earth as utter dross before the total end goal of creation, which is heaven. That's one of the obvious (and damaging) end results of damnation-based thinking, to my mind.

Might not be post-mortem. Maybe there will be reincarnation. I kind of like that idea (I also am enjoying imagining you twitch/squirm/roll your eyes as you read that ).

In any case, the reason I preach and live the Gospel is because I think it enhances the value of human existence. If you think the Gospel's only virtue is that it contains all things necessary for salvation, well, that's sad. And surprising, to be honest. I don't think that's what you believe, though.

If all roads lead to eternal and complete communion with God, the rather limited and comparatively brief time we spend here is trivial to the point of insignificance. In terms of "damage" if all roads DON'T lead to eternal and complete communion with God what we do here and now has great bearing on whether we receive that communion for eternity, or something else altogether. As for reincarnation, it is, by definition, post mortem so, meh.

No, I don't think the gospels only value is that it contains all that's necessary for salvation. I do, however, think its chief value lies in testifying the glory of God, and containing all that's necessary for salvation the chief way it does so. At its heart, the gospel is about God doing the impossible, sacrificing Himself in the carnal flesh to satisfy the dual demands of Absolute Love and Absolute Justice, neither of which he can deny and BE God. Salvation is undeniably involved in that, it's the fullest expression of Gods inestimable glory and the reason I think sin was allowed to come into being, but it remains very much a God centered thing to which man is subordinate.

The relationship with God Roland mentioned above is likewise about man not only accepting but rejoicing in that, but it also means that what we do now has lasting value in the hereafter rather than being a mere collection of things that God will "fix" or not as needed. We can take works out if it entirely if you like; I think they remain quite significant, but we can set that aside for the nonce: If nothing else the here and now matter because it is here and now that we have the opportunity to choose a relationship with God for His sake rather than our own, because it is right and pleasing to Him rather than on the basis of what we have to gain or lose and without being confronted with undeniable proof we literally cannot exist without Him. That's my ultimate problem with Universalism, the idea that once a person is shown his place in creation and sees his own need for God he'll inevitably accept it; not only do I dispute that that's always the case, else real free will would be impossible, but far more importantly it's not acting from love for God, but rather enlightened self interest.
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Ted Haggard Would Be Bisexual If He Was a Hot 21-Year-Old - 27/01/2011 05:01:12 PM 1259 Views
OK *NM* - 27/01/2011 06:10:10 PM 502 Views
Not sure what the point of this post was *NM* - 27/01/2011 06:50:59 PM 464 Views
It was something that made me laugh? - 27/01/2011 06:53:09 PM 778 Views
yeah you were only insulting people's religion, no reason to get worked up. *NM* - 27/01/2011 09:24:55 PM 466 Views
Er, pretty sure just laughing at what one guy said, plus a pun on the word "hard" - 27/01/2011 09:40:29 PM 699 Views
I am an athiest so I don't care - 27/01/2011 10:10:26 PM 763 Views
Re: I am an athiest so I don't care - 27/01/2011 11:10:21 PM 742 Views
bullshit - 28/01/2011 03:54:41 PM 939 Views
Moron. *NM* - 29/01/2011 03:48:35 PM 428 Views
Well put. - 29/01/2011 04:48:00 PM 1055 Views
Or he'd still be closeted because of twisted, hateful strains of Christianity. *NM* - 27/01/2011 06:56:04 PM 374 Views
If your religion states homosexuality is wrong, then it is a position of principle... - 27/01/2011 06:59:04 PM 844 Views
Wow, you really don't understand what it is to be human - 27/01/2011 08:51:17 PM 702 Views
I'm sure you'll agree that a religious debate is not really called for here... - 27/01/2011 09:10:38 PM 792 Views
Homosexuality =/= homosexual sex. - 27/01/2011 09:16:50 PM 729 Views
Err...no. - 27/01/2011 09:23:54 PM 962 Views
Re: Err...no. - 27/01/2011 09:42:00 PM 913 Views
You seem to want to argue about what is allowed and what is not allowed... - 27/01/2011 10:08:10 PM 783 Views
So I am curious on your thoughts of Matthew 5:28 *NM* - 27/01/2011 10:30:50 PM 402 Views
What about it? - 28/01/2011 03:26:19 PM 808 Views
not really - 27/01/2011 10:15:32 PM 981 Views
I completely and utterly disagree - 27/01/2011 10:39:10 PM 719 Views
Replace "Christian Faith" with "hardcore Calvinism" and I'll go away. - 28/01/2011 12:35:36 AM 682 Views
Brush up on your Romans and Corinthians - 28/01/2011 03:30:24 PM 1107 Views
I think that covered it pretty well. - 27/01/2011 11:23:13 PM 846 Views
Is it possible to have faith, but not agree with your church's stance on subjects?. *NM* - 27/01/2011 09:15:14 PM 426 Views
Of course. Faith is a broad concept. But... - 27/01/2011 09:20:54 PM 864 Views
Absolutely. - 27/01/2011 11:17:19 PM 652 Views
Nicely said *NM* - 27/01/2011 11:19:54 PM 428 Views
Agreed. - 28/01/2011 12:26:38 AM 694 Views
Re: Agreed. - 28/01/2011 01:48:22 AM 843 Views
Well, at least you're not disputing the nature of my claim. - 27/01/2011 10:23:24 PM 725 Views
I thought acceptance meant rejecting anything with which you're uncomfortable? - 27/01/2011 11:39:48 PM 867 Views
Don't even know what that means. - 28/01/2011 12:31:23 AM 642 Views
Actually, that first line is my problem with Universalism - 28/01/2011 01:54:00 AM 835 Views
"Carnal flesh" is redundant, you know. - 28/01/2011 04:27:30 AM 717 Views
Point of emphasis. - 28/01/2011 05:52:28 AM 826 Views
Agreed. *NM* - 28/01/2011 06:33:55 AM 405 Views
...I can't believe of the three posts, this is the only one with replies - 27/01/2011 09:48:14 PM 640 Views
I read it, if that's any consolation. *NM* - 27/01/2011 10:00:31 PM 432 Views
It is nothing new, there are always people "who protest too much" - 27/01/2011 10:26:49 PM 680 Views
TAHT'S BECAUSE IT'S GAAAAAAAAAAAAY. *NM* - 27/01/2011 11:01:15 PM 442 Views
I thought that was quite humorous - 27/01/2011 11:38:31 PM 771 Views

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