Or at least, that's the number they claim for "fully native speakers", which I'm not sure how they define - for instance, would I count as a "fully native English speaker" when it's not my mother tongue but I speak it at a near-native level?
Perhaps, but if you ask them whether they would prefer to see Irish disappear and have Ireland become a monolingual country, I dare say they'd be rather opposed to that. I too have heard complaints about the mandatory Irish classes, but generally prefaced with some comment about how the speaker does wish to have some fluency in Irish.
And as for "a few thousand", Wikipedia says something like 60-70% of the 90k Gaeltacht inhabitants, plus an undefined number in the rest of the country, use Irish on a daily or near-daily basis. It's a small language, but not THAT small yet - not like Cornish or Manx.
If things were as bad as you make them seem and a large majority of Irish wanted to get rid of those mandatory Irish classes, how exactly do you explain the fact that they're still there? It's a democracy after all. I expect if you let the teenagers who are actually in those classes vote, they might vote to remove them alright, or it might be close at least; but evidently their parents feel that it's a good thing to have their children learn Irish in school still.
I think the matter is more complicated than you make it out to be, and that most Irish would indeed like to speak Irish - but it's a difficult language, they don't necessarily have much opportunity to practice it, and apparently the way the language is taught leaves something to be desired in many schools.
Yes, well, we're not in Antiquity anymore. People live much longer, written records can be made and be kept immeasurably easier, and the people in the West at least have enough leisure time and spare resources that they can devote their time to causes not related to immediate survival, more than previous generations did.
It seems to me your position on natural evolutions in language use is somewhat inconsistent, considering how strongly you felt about maintaining certain grammatical elements in various European languages, when the current trend is to let those fade out of existence.
I can't agree that it's in such a bad state as that.
Yes, well, the United States has no official languages besides English (and even that is, as I recall, not technically an "official" language). If the increase in Hispanic Americans continues, there will come a point where Spanish will become the second language for almost everyone, and those wanting to learn French or some other language can do it as third language instead. In any country that has multiple languages, it's only natural for the government to encourage the learning of the other languages at a higher priority than it would have from an international "how important is this language globally" perspective. And frankly, even from a utility point of view, it's not immediately clear to me that (Anglophone) Irish people have any real need to speak French, Spanish or German, since their native language is already the most spoken foreign language in very nearly every European country. So it's not as if the mandatory Irish is getting in the way of any other important language.
(For a contrasting example, look at Wallonia: there they have a real and quite understandable dilemma between giving priority to the language spoken by a majority of the country and all of a neighbouring country, Dutch, or to the internationally useful language, English. Some schools start with one, others with the other, still others let students choose for themselves. In Flanders, one might suppose there to be a similar problem, but since learning proper English really, really is not a problem for most Flemings even with limited exposure in schools, the decision to give the priority to French is the right one.)
I rather doubt it in the case of Latin. With living languages, certainly the numbers of students learning Irish would take a rapid drop, but I'm fairly confident that "almost non-existent" is a serious exaggeration. Like I said, it's not as if the Anglophone Irish really have any pressing need for any particular language.
Everyone that I have met from Ireland, without exception, loathes the enforced Irish language classes. Most people in Ireland do not speak Irish in their daily lives and seem quite happy to have things remain that way. There are perhaps a few thousand people left who speak it as their primary or "mother" tongue, and most of those people are old.
Perhaps, but if you ask them whether they would prefer to see Irish disappear and have Ireland become a monolingual country, I dare say they'd be rather opposed to that. I too have heard complaints about the mandatory Irish classes, but generally prefaced with some comment about how the speaker does wish to have some fluency in Irish.
And as for "a few thousand", Wikipedia says something like 60-70% of the 90k Gaeltacht inhabitants, plus an undefined number in the rest of the country, use Irish on a daily or near-daily basis. It's a small language, but not THAT small yet - not like Cornish or Manx.
It is a very simple truth that languages survive because people choose to continue speaking them. No amount of forced learning can keep a language alive if no one wants to use it. In fact, the more something is forced on people, the more likely they are to reject it.
If things were as bad as you make them seem and a large majority of Irish wanted to get rid of those mandatory Irish classes, how exactly do you explain the fact that they're still there? It's a democracy after all. I expect if you let the teenagers who are actually in those classes vote, they might vote to remove them alright, or it might be close at least; but evidently their parents feel that it's a good thing to have their children learn Irish in school still.
I think the matter is more complicated than you make it out to be, and that most Irish would indeed like to speak Irish - but it's a difficult language, they don't necessarily have much opportunity to practice it, and apparently the way the language is taught leaves something to be desired in many schools.
Look at antiquity. The peoples of Gaul and the Iberian peninsula decided that their local languages weren't really useful, and Latin displaced it. By contrast, the Dardanians, wedged between Italy and Greece, never stopped using their language, which we know as Albanian. The peoples of Syria and Judea spoke Aramaic, and even though Greek arrived, with all of its culture, learning and beauty, it made a hasty exit along with the Byzantine troops when the Arabs invaded, and Aramaic remained for another 400 years. However, for a host of reasons, Aramaic lost out to Arabic after having resisted Greek.
Yes, well, we're not in Antiquity anymore. People live much longer, written records can be made and be kept immeasurably easier, and the people in the West at least have enough leisure time and spare resources that they can devote their time to causes not related to immediate survival, more than previous generations did.
It seems to me your position on natural evolutions in language use is somewhat inconsistent, considering how strongly you felt about maintaining certain grammatical elements in various European languages, when the current trend is to let those fade out of existence.
Irish is dying, and quickly. People do not want to speak it, it has no utility and the conscious choice is to not use it. The same could happen to any other language on earth if the people who speak it decide they don't want to anymore. Let it go.
I can't agree that it's in such a bad state as that.
To your other, tangential point: children in schools should be required to learn A foreign language, but the choice of the language should be up to the students. In the United States, there are almost always two options: French and Spanish. Some schools offer German or Latin as well, and trendy schools will offer other languages (like Chinese these days) based on the languages that people want their children to know.
Yes, well, the United States has no official languages besides English (and even that is, as I recall, not technically an "official" language). If the increase in Hispanic Americans continues, there will come a point where Spanish will become the second language for almost everyone, and those wanting to learn French or some other language can do it as third language instead. In any country that has multiple languages, it's only natural for the government to encourage the learning of the other languages at a higher priority than it would have from an international "how important is this language globally" perspective. And frankly, even from a utility point of view, it's not immediately clear to me that (Anglophone) Irish people have any real need to speak French, Spanish or German, since their native language is already the most spoken foreign language in very nearly every European country. So it's not as if the mandatory Irish is getting in the way of any other important language.
(For a contrasting example, look at Wallonia: there they have a real and quite understandable dilemma between giving priority to the language spoken by a majority of the country and all of a neighbouring country, Dutch, or to the internationally useful language, English. Some schools start with one, others with the other, still others let students choose for themselves. In Flanders, one might suppose there to be a similar problem, but since learning proper English really, really is not a problem for most Flemings even with limited exposure in schools, the decision to give the priority to French is the right one.)
I would be interested to see what would happen if Ireland decided to replace mandatory Irish with a language requirement that could be satisfied by Irish or Latin. My suspicion is that more students would take Latin than Irish, even though it's been "dead" for quite some time. Add living languages and I think the Irish language programs would be almost non-existent.
I rather doubt it in the case of Latin. With living languages, certainly the numbers of students learning Irish would take a rapid drop, but I'm fairly confident that "almost non-existent" is a serious exaggeration. Like I said, it's not as if the Anglophone Irish really have any pressing need for any particular language.
So the Irish government has basically imploded.
23/01/2011 04:47:10 PM
- 1532 Views
I am now confused
23/01/2011 05:34:31 PM
- 898 Views
You do realize Britain is pretty much the envy of the Western world at the moment?
23/01/2011 06:27:05 PM
- 953 Views
Re: You do realize Britain is pretty much the envy of the Western world at the moment?
23/01/2011 06:34:47 PM
- 874 Views
I did. There was more violence than in ours, that's true (ours have none so far, knock on wood).
23/01/2011 06:41:34 PM
- 857 Views
Re: I did. There was more violence than in ours, that's true (ours have none so far, knock on wood).
23/01/2011 06:43:41 PM
- 791 Views
Those protests were only violent by British standards.
23/01/2011 11:54:15 PM
- 862 Views
What protests?
24/01/2011 07:26:49 PM
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Re: What protests?
24/01/2011 07:28:40 PM
- 770 Views
Re: What protests?
25/01/2011 09:23:17 AM
- 897 Views
There's a new objection
25/01/2011 11:38:25 AM
- 833 Views
I didn't object...
25/01/2011 11:47:11 AM
- 722 Views
And Britain had to live with the Conservative Wilderness for 15 years before it could get there *NM*
24/01/2011 02:43:16 AM
- 430 Views
Should I start chiming in on Norwegian politics now that I'm here...?
24/01/2011 12:42:03 AM
- 722 Views
Why not?
24/01/2011 08:49:07 AM
- 861 Views
'Cos I doubt you'll like what I have to say, for one thing.
26/01/2011 01:55:13 AM
- 859 Views
That's been a while coming, hasn't it? Cowen seems to be losing it.
23/01/2011 05:48:30 PM
- 840 Views
Certainly. he's been on dodgy ground for a couple months.
23/01/2011 06:27:27 PM
- 905 Views
Re: Certainly. he's been on dodgy ground for a couple months.
23/01/2011 06:33:26 PM
- 856 Views
Re: Certainly. he's been on dodgy ground for a couple months.
23/01/2011 07:19:03 PM
- 949 Views
Re: Certainly. he's been on dodgy ground for a couple months.
23/01/2011 07:57:05 PM
- 810 Views
Re: Certainly. he's been on dodgy ground for a couple months.
23/01/2011 09:29:03 PM
- 909 Views
Re: Certainly. he's been on dodgy ground for a couple months.
23/01/2011 09:46:20 PM
- 867 Views
I think Adams is an Irish citizen, and not a British one.
23/01/2011 11:45:34 PM
- 825 Views
I found out something else today which makes it even better.
24/01/2011 10:37:45 PM
- 981 Views
I was reading your post and going "what about the Chiltern Hundreds"?
24/01/2011 10:44:32 PM
- 831 Views
Oh, alternatively we could elevate him to the House of Lords.
26/01/2011 11:08:44 PM
- 843 Views
Awesome idea. Something like "Baron Adams of Londonderry", I'm thinking. *NM*
27/01/2011 07:54:26 PM
- 416 Views
We made his arch-rival a Lord, after all, so it would only be fair.
28/01/2011 08:26:15 AM
- 779 Views
Here you go
25/01/2011 12:55:33 PM
- 922 Views
well, the only interesting thing in swedish politics is a wikileaks document and the reactions...
23/01/2011 06:21:00 PM
- 899 Views
What is inappropriate about trying to keep out barbaric unskilled people?
23/01/2011 10:59:53 PM
- 854 Views
The inappropriateness is the generalisation in the claim
23/01/2011 11:16:52 PM
- 832 Views
Generalizations are inappropriate when they are disproven by statistics, and appropriate when proven
24/01/2011 07:33:14 PM
- 788 Views
I've looked into the statistics a bit more.
24/01/2011 09:11:52 PM
- 806 Views
I take it you're talking about the Middle East in its most narrow sense here.
24/01/2011 09:56:22 PM
- 849 Views
... the fact that they are asylum seekers, and their skill certainly shouldn't matter in that case.
24/01/2011 07:08:14 PM
- 735 Views
Hopefully they'll stop using Irish officially as a way to cut down on unnecessary costs.
23/01/2011 10:57:08 PM
- 776 Views
I'd support that
23/01/2011 11:26:20 PM
- 849 Views
Ironically, if you de-officialised Irish you could get EU money to help preserve it.
23/01/2011 11:48:14 PM
- 759 Views
But why, why?
24/01/2011 08:35:43 PM
- 745 Views
Because it's the only thing justifying their insistence they're not British?
24/01/2011 10:03:54 PM
- 797 Views
But all language learning should be purely voluntary (after what parents teach their children).
25/01/2011 03:05:28 AM
- 779 Views
What, so you don't think students in high school should be taught foreign languages?
25/01/2011 06:34:21 PM
- 752 Views
Irish is the mother tongue of about 7,000-15,000 people at most.
26/01/2011 05:04:00 AM
- 822 Views
Wikipedia says it's more like 40k-80k.
26/01/2011 06:41:41 PM
- 1195 Views
And Elaine, Stephen, or any other Irish people here: do feel free to comment. *NM*
26/01/2011 06:42:36 PM
- 433 Views
More to the point, are YOU interested in learning Irish?
26/01/2011 05:15:18 AM
- 731 Views
Calling Ireland the new Sodom and Gomorrah, are you?
26/01/2011 06:02:05 PM
- 891 Views
I don't think it's as fun as Sodom and Gomorrah, at least not post-crisis.
26/01/2011 09:48:54 PM
- 852 Views
Re: I don't think it's as fun as Sodom and Gomorrah, at least not post-crisis.
27/01/2011 08:42:21 PM
- 709 Views
Presumably because they agree with J.R.R. Tolkien and Tómas Sæmundsson about language's importance.
24/01/2011 10:16:05 PM
- 891 Views
So Australians and New Zealanders are really English then? Austrians are just Germans?
25/01/2011 03:01:14 AM
- 852 Views
I never said I agreed .
25/01/2011 08:19:11 AM
- 823 Views
I would suggest that a distinct dialect does the job just as well
25/01/2011 02:23:59 PM
- 836 Views
The thing is, people who feel really strongly about that usually insist it's a separate language.
28/01/2011 04:20:57 PM
- 701 Views
It's really more about having a unique silly costume to wear at Miss Universe pageants.
26/01/2011 05:09:10 AM
- 689 Views
You're confusing what we sell to gullible American tourists with what we actually value . *NM*
28/01/2011 04:15:01 PM
- 368 Views
What the hell happened to the Celtic Tiger Country? *NM*
24/01/2011 05:47:12 AM
- 466 Views
The Celtic Tiger is dead, Ireland had a GDP contraction of 14% in the last two years.
24/01/2011 01:47:06 PM
- 804 Views
It's still there, but it aimed a bit too high and got a bit scorched.
24/01/2011 10:07:36 PM
- 680 Views