Also, for at least a week I consciously avoided digging into the details lest I find reason to believe Loughner more than a nut. Unfortunately it won't go away. We can't mourn the dead and address the ease with which one can legally get a gun despite a long and documented history of mental instability and criminal violence (the public suggestion that we SHOULDN'T do this is what prompted me to look deeper); instead we must focus on a former governors insistence that a comfy shoe doesn't fit. Rather than say, "Its absurd to suggest any connection" that suggestion is publicly called a malicious act. One op ed can be ignored; when a large political faction parrots it right down to the diction it must be addressed. If protesting libel charges means the shoe fits, protesting incitement charges does the same--which means it's not libel at all.
The right has, IMO, a legitimate grievance with left punditry and fringe blaming most every violent incident on them without proof. Rallying against that is utterly expected, totally legal, and IMO entirely ethical, your disagreement on the latter point is not really relevant, anymore than mine when an oil spill or industrial accident brings out those who favor greater regulation. You are stepping very close in your comments to an apparent endorsement of 1st amendment restrictions, which is so bizarre coming from you, as normally that is an area we strongly agree on, that I can not contemplate your motives as less than biased or I am simply not understanding where you're going with this. Are you seriously suggesting Palin and others be charged with some crime? It genuinely sounds like you are but that seems so ludicrous from you that I must assume you are simply not explaining your position clearly, yet you seem to keep reiterating the point.
Admittedly, I've made a lot of posts here, many of them lengthy, but regarding new vs. old laws, I'm only arguing for the latter. We've frequently discussed the well known SCOTUS rulings that incitement to violence/rioting isn't protected by free speech. In fact, I'm fairly certain I've referenced them with regard to extremist inflammatory rhetoric from the far right, so I suppose I was guilty of "blood libel" BEFORE the shootings, too. You can say what you want as long as it can't reasonably be considered to encourage violence. We can debate whether statements by Palin et al. qualify, but I believe there's cause to think they do. In any event, you'd think after two straight years of liberals saying, "if you people keep talking like that about us some nut is going to take you literally and kill one of us" an attempt to murder a liberal Congresswoman would prompt something other than "there's no way this had anything to do with our statements and how dare you suggest otherwise?!" Maybe we're paranoid, but we aren't shooting people over it, and if there's even a slight risk of inciting violence you'd think preventing that would be enough incentive to tone down the rhetoric rather than asserting the right to say anything and everything whomever it endangers.
Now as for guns laws, you say established history, and I agree Loughner had an established history, yet we must keep two things in mind. First, nothing from a legal standpoint was done against him, we can hardly cry foul and demand more laws when the authority to prevent this already existed and was simply not exercised. Second, we must tread very carefully when we start talking about stripping someone's rights on grounds of insanity or incompetence utilizing the same rule of thumb we have when we say "Better ten guilty men go free than one innocent be imprisoned", because it is essentially the same thing, when you take away someone's rights, whatever those rights are, you have the burden of proof to show that it was demonstrably justified and necessary. And when you do that, you must look at each individual action, not as a group, and ask if those warranted the action you took. Oh, many minor infractions or warning signs can 'add up' but when we look at why he wasn't dealt with we have to see if any of his prior incidents actually warranted restrictions, because from a practical standpoint many really did not except in hindsight. For instance, drug usage. His details are sketchy still but the military does not routinely contact the authorities if an applicant comes up hot for marijuana, and for fairly obvious reasons. For one, the test is voluntary as joining is voluntary. Nor do they wish to scare applicants away for fear they will not only be rejected but incarcerated. Many young people, with the foolishness only youth explains, regularly show up with narcotics still in their system for their MEPS exam. Considering most of us view pot usage by young adults as trivial having thousands of would be soldiers arrested each year would not go over well. Further, were a draft re-enabled for any reason, and a requirement to report positive results enforced, it is almost impossible to imagine the number of people who would need arresting and it would also burden the military with lots of red tape and procedures for what is otherwise a relatively simple rejection process since no criminal charges are expected to be filed, same as many companies use.
Additionally, drug use is a very bad standard for denying someone anything from the Bill of Rights. We would not do it for any other right and do so for that one only because it represents a clear hazard. A patterned history of prolonged drug use seems a fair standard to remove that privilege, at least temporarily, but why on Earth would a man who got arrested for smoking pot or doing coke say five years ago and since had no run ins with the law be less viable for gun ownership and transport than anyone else? We can take this a step further, he brought a gun to class, but I don't recall hearing that any charges were filed for that, and a gun in a college classroom is not some automatic crime. Much like bringing a gun anywhere, there may be rules and restrictions in local law or for private property their own rules, but we can hardly take away someone's gun if no law was violated or if no one bothered to press charges if a law was violated. Is taking a gun on to private property without permission even a felony? That would vary from case to case and state to state, obviously hunters who enter someone else's back woods on accident are not routinely incarcerated. Nor is showing people a gun a crime, it can be, for the purpose of intimidation, but even that's slippery ground. A person with a carry and conceal permit is on pretty solid ground when they open their jacket to reveal a weapon, letting people know you have a gun is not a crime anywhere that I know of, threatening someone with it can be, as can having it. Regardless, if no criminal charges are filed it hardly permits one to take away that right. And if we get to some murky "Clearly established pattern of behavior" you then have to have rules and authority on what constitutes 'clearly established' and who gets to judge that. I'm not sure extreme new legislation which might prevent such things is warranted, considering how genuinely rare they are. It's not PC to say so but this country does not have a rash of killing sprees, we have millions of guns, millions of cranks, and 300+ million people, yet tragic as these things are, they are relatively uncommon on that scale. You are hugely more likely to be killed or injured in a car accident, and a license is not a constitutional right, why would we want laws more restrictive than those existing for drivers? Say 30 people die a year in spree killings, this is high, but represent only 1 in 10 million people, rounding up again to assume a 100 year lifespan, the average persons chance of ever being killed under such circumstance are a mere 1 in 100,000, 20 times smaller than your odds of being struck by lightning in your lifetime, and we boosted our numbers twice to get that figure. We don't need more panic legislation for something like this which can cause for greater harm.
Additionally, drug use is a very bad standard for denying someone anything from the Bill of Rights. We would not do it for any other right and do so for that one only because it represents a clear hazard. A patterned history of prolonged drug use seems a fair standard to remove that privilege, at least temporarily, but why on Earth would a man who got arrested for smoking pot or doing coke say five years ago and since had no run ins with the law be less viable for gun ownership and transport than anyone else? We can take this a step further, he brought a gun to class, but I don't recall hearing that any charges were filed for that, and a gun in a college classroom is not some automatic crime. Much like bringing a gun anywhere, there may be rules and restrictions in local law or for private property their own rules, but we can hardly take away someone's gun if no law was violated or if no one bothered to press charges if a law was violated. Is taking a gun on to private property without permission even a felony? That would vary from case to case and state to state, obviously hunters who enter someone else's back woods on accident are not routinely incarcerated. Nor is showing people a gun a crime, it can be, for the purpose of intimidation, but even that's slippery ground. A person with a carry and conceal permit is on pretty solid ground when they open their jacket to reveal a weapon, letting people know you have a gun is not a crime anywhere that I know of, threatening someone with it can be, as can having it. Regardless, if no criminal charges are filed it hardly permits one to take away that right. And if we get to some murky "Clearly established pattern of behavior" you then have to have rules and authority on what constitutes 'clearly established' and who gets to judge that. I'm not sure extreme new legislation which might prevent such things is warranted, considering how genuinely rare they are. It's not PC to say so but this country does not have a rash of killing sprees, we have millions of guns, millions of cranks, and 300+ million people, yet tragic as these things are, they are relatively uncommon on that scale. You are hugely more likely to be killed or injured in a car accident, and a license is not a constitutional right, why would we want laws more restrictive than those existing for drivers? Say 30 people die a year in spree killings, this is high, but represent only 1 in 10 million people, rounding up again to assume a 100 year lifespan, the average persons chance of ever being killed under such circumstance are a mere 1 in 100,000, 20 times smaller than your odds of being struck by lightning in your lifetime, and we boosted our numbers twice to get that figure. We don't need more panic legislation for something like this which can cause for greater harm.
We're not talking about someone acquitted, but someone who had two criminal charges dismissed by completing what Wikipedia calls "diversion program[s]". They seem to have been exactly that: They diverted both justice and societys safety. Liberalism almost certainly bears some blame for that. "College police" are barely worthy of the name, so I'm not surprised they could do nothing except (effectively) have Loughner expelled for five violations of their code of conduct but, once again, there's a record of violent wrongdoing. They didn't literally expel him, of course--they just made his return to class conditional on a mental evaluation stating he wasn't a danger to others, which he didn't even try to obtain. A classmate and teacher both said they feared he could commit a school shooting. I find it difficult to believe this guy would've been able to legally get a gun if the Brady Bills mandatory background checks were still in effect--but of course they aren't, so when one store refused to sell an obvious nut ammo on the morning of the shooting, he simply went to another and got it. I'm not talking about "extreme NEW legislation", despite the fact that everytime someone brings this up since the shootings that's the response. The OLD federal law requiring background checks to bar violent criminals and/or the insane from legally getting guns doesn't seem like an infringement on Constitutional rights, since it ONLY affects criminals and the insane and would prevent murder.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
This message last edited by Joel on 20/01/2011 at 07:00:55 PM
OK, I'm Officially Sick of the "Blood Libel" BS.
16/01/2011 12:18:22 PM
- 1991 Views
Why are they calling it "blood libel"?
16/01/2011 12:23:47 PM
- 853 Views
Because if the facts were as they represent them those words would be applicable.
16/01/2011 12:49:22 PM
- 1031 Views
It's not entirely clear to me whether you're aware of this or not, but...
16/01/2011 01:12:22 PM
- 1075 Views
I think Alan Dershowitz dealt with this nonsense already
16/01/2011 02:34:10 PM
- 1368 Views
Interesting. I didn't realize it was so wide-spread.
16/01/2011 03:10:28 PM
- 928 Views
She wasn't even the first to use the term that week either
16/01/2011 10:10:35 PM
- 930 Views
I don't know that "expert" has anything to do with it.
16/01/2011 10:18:54 PM
- 958 Views
Oh please don't you start to
17/01/2011 02:34:43 PM
- 811 Views
I for one hadn't noticed it before.
17/01/2011 10:25:57 PM
- 981 Views
it was used here and nobody commented
17/01/2011 10:37:07 PM
- 871 Views
LOL, I totally forgot that got posted here
17/01/2011 10:54:26 PM
- 923 Views
It's funny you should say that...
18/01/2011 10:32:59 PM
- 952 Views
Precisely: I noticed, but it hadn't become a rallying cry for "the real victim" (Palin).
19/01/2011 12:14:48 AM
- 1062 Views
I thought you were the real vicitim
19/01/2011 02:49:06 PM
- 1035 Views
When and where did I say that? The ultimate victim is America, but six members of it just died.
19/01/2011 11:24:27 PM
- 756 Views
Re: It's funny you should say that...
19/01/2011 03:29:52 PM
- 939 Views
It was permissible to ignore until it became a rallying cry.
20/01/2011 04:27:23 PM
- 963 Views
A rallying cry is hardly illegal
20/01/2011 05:32:45 PM
- 1015 Views
I never said it was.
20/01/2011 06:59:39 PM
- 1147 Views
Oh, I noticed that one alright.
18/01/2011 10:25:23 PM
- 794 Views
but is he accussed of being a tasteless moron who doesn't know what it means?
19/01/2011 02:28:03 PM
- 840 Views
I don't know, if I have to judge him based on that one article, then tasteless moron, absolutely.
19/01/2011 06:14:43 PM
- 954 Views
The peole who called her stupid for using the term didn't know it was so wide spread either
17/01/2011 02:33:19 PM
- 813 Views
Indeed, my response to Legolas references Wikipedias quotation of him.
16/01/2011 10:24:09 PM
- 1007 Views
Re: Indeed, my response to Legolas references Wikipedias quotation of him.
16/01/2011 11:09:21 PM
- 1037 Views
Again, Giffords specifically made the connection between Palins imagery and an attack on her.
17/01/2011 12:53:08 AM
- 1174 Views
That means precisely nothing
17/01/2011 03:59:07 PM
- 871 Views
It means everything.
18/01/2011 08:34:55 PM
- 1142 Views
I'm trying to understand your logic
19/01/2011 12:50:28 AM
- 747 Views
There are two points:
19/01/2011 02:47:48 AM
- 934 Views
I don't agree, but I understand. *NM*
19/01/2011 10:14:13 PM
- 458 Views
Giffords' statements and Palins are matters of public record; they're indisputable.
19/01/2011 11:34:53 PM
- 910 Views
I must say, if more people on both sides could say that we'd all be better for it.
20/01/2011 04:32:55 AM
- 953 Views
the old step one steal underwear step three profit argument
19/01/2011 06:01:14 PM
- 1027 Views
Your inability/unwillingness to follow basic and clearly delineated logic is not my failing.
20/01/2011 01:19:31 AM
- 849 Views
I admit I can't follow gnome logic *NM*
20/01/2011 05:50:22 AM
- 448 Views
I demonstrated the connection, whether or not you choose to look the other way.
20/01/2011 03:16:28 PM
- 925 Views
that is some twisted and bizarre logic
17/01/2011 02:38:41 PM
- 971 Views
Giffords said Palins crosshairs imagery would have "consequences"; Palin calls the suggestion libel.
18/01/2011 08:54:45 PM
- 864 Views
yes but the only consequences is liberals using them to slander Palin
19/01/2011 02:58:35 PM
- 945 Views
I read Toms reply; I don't think he exactly vindicated your position, nor meant to do so.
20/01/2011 01:52:37 AM
- 1181 Views
It was an example of blaming the victim, a phrase you keep misusing
20/01/2011 06:28:21 PM
- 887 Views
I thought you said only liberals blinded by political bias committed that grave sin.
20/01/2011 07:47:09 PM
- 934 Views
so in other words you again missed the point
20/01/2011 08:26:49 PM
- 882 Views
Well, one of us did.
20/01/2011 09:24:35 PM
- 996 Views
so lets be clear do you or don't you understand what it means to "blame the vicitm"?
20/01/2011 10:03:48 PM
- 638 Views
I understand it well; can we be equally clear you say the victim here is Palin?
20/01/2011 10:44:08 PM
- 1070 Views
So I am a little confused on something...
16/01/2011 02:38:59 PM
- 1028 Views
Palin putting Giffords district in the crosshairs and Giffords implying at the time she feared this
16/01/2011 11:21:36 PM
- 1164 Views
If I understand what you are saying correctly...
17/01/2011 07:07:56 AM
- 900 Views
I'm sorry you so badly misunderstand.
17/01/2011 08:33:47 AM
- 911 Views
Re: I'm sorry you so badly misunderstand.
17/01/2011 04:24:01 PM
- 964 Views
The Secret Service does guard Congressmen, just not all of them automatically.
18/01/2011 09:13:39 PM
- 798 Views
No, they don't
18/01/2011 10:19:34 PM
- 985 Views
Really? Cannoli says differently, and I believe he's right on that one.
18/01/2011 10:50:51 PM
- 1066 Views
You seem to be reading what you want to from what I said
19/01/2011 01:27:32 PM
- 914 Views
I read what you said & understood it as you restate here, hence I referenced local police (twice)
20/01/2011 02:15:17 AM
- 951 Views
The problem here is your ignoring normal policing powers to concoct an absurdity
20/01/2011 04:20:25 PM
- 1001 Views
More absurd than the notion such incitement warrants no notice?
20/01/2011 05:42:47 PM
- 1060 Views
really because people post that kind of crap daily and nothing happens
20/01/2011 05:57:52 PM
- 857 Views
I thought waterboarding was OK and any suggestion to the contrary was terrorist sympathizing.
20/01/2011 07:54:05 PM
- 811 Views
way to dodge the point again
20/01/2011 08:34:33 PM
- 819 Views
Do you have an example of a credible threat of injury to a Congressman, or calls for one?
20/01/2011 10:02:53 PM
- 901 Views
Your shifting your original premise, *again*
20/01/2011 08:24:18 PM
- 885 Views
No, you're simply missing the point of it.
20/01/2011 11:09:57 PM
- 884 Views
Uh...Last I checked conservatives didn't list the Communist Manifesto as a favourite book.
16/01/2011 03:05:07 PM
- 1201 Views
Libs hate Mein Kampf and We the Living; conservatives hate the Communist Manifesto: He's neither.
16/01/2011 10:06:02 PM
- 901 Views
conseartives hate Mein Kampf and liberals stil read the Communist Manifesto
17/01/2011 02:57:22 PM
- 880 Views
That first line is says it all.
18/01/2011 09:34:06 PM
- 961 Views
Nazis had more in common with communist then capitalist
19/01/2011 04:10:09 PM
- 1070 Views
The founder of fascism called it "the merger of corporate and national power".
20/01/2011 02:51:09 AM
- 953 Views
It is to be expected that this site would be libtard central...
16/01/2011 05:23:53 PM
- 1155 Views
Again, I don't think Palin intended this, but Giffords feared ten months ago that this could result.
16/01/2011 11:29:19 PM
- 961 Views
And I call bullshit
18/01/2011 03:12:13 PM
- 1102 Views
If Palin wants to accuse Giffords of libel she should have the guts to do it to her face.
18/01/2011 10:39:07 PM
- 1059 Views
So if some jihadist shot Gifford, would you also blame Palin?
19/01/2011 02:52:42 PM
- 943 Views
don't get ti doesn't matter who is to blame it just matters if they can use it *NM*
19/01/2011 04:11:09 PM
- 426 Views
No, I'd blame the shooter first and the mullahs shouting, "JIHAD111" second, as I always do.
20/01/2011 03:11:33 AM
- 1041 Views
Then why are you even here? I pretty much agree with you entirely and I'm fairly liberal. *NM*
18/01/2011 01:16:33 PM
- 535 Views
Palin didn't really have anything to do with this, but it makes sense she's blamed.
16/01/2011 10:19:51 PM
- 881 Views
Did they ever catch the person(s) that vandalized Gifford's office? *NM*
17/01/2011 03:30:36 AM
- 448 Views
I didn't realize someone had, but it appears a militia leader was responsible (shocking, I know).
17/01/2011 07:04:08 AM
- 897 Views
politcal offices are vandalized on a regular basis *NM*
17/01/2011 02:41:29 PM
- 408 Views
She only asked if they caught the guy, she didn't accuse anyone, Sarah.
18/01/2011 11:27:18 PM
- 847 Views
Took you this long, huh?
17/01/2011 01:53:31 PM
- 801 Views
I didn't want to look because I was afraid the charges against the far right demagogues might stick.
18/01/2011 11:07:26 PM
- 1124 Views
I am sick of the desperate attempts of liberals to find a way to use a tragedy
17/01/2011 02:31:18 PM
- 816 Views
I'm just curious.
17/01/2011 03:23:47 PM
- 792 Views
Had that convo with the cab driver on the way home from a New Years party.
18/01/2011 11:42:07 PM
- 1085 Views
If slander, not mine, Giffords' (at least you don't err like Palin and say, "libel" ).
18/01/2011 11:14:23 PM
- 1009 Views
mark you calendar today is the day Joel offically went around the bend into insanity
19/01/2011 05:28:06 PM
- 815 Views
A mirror will show me who's to blame? On whom have I put a crosshairs?
20/01/2011 03:23:43 AM
- 869 Views
so it is all a matter of faith for you
20/01/2011 05:48:44 AM
- 819 Views
No, it's fairly straight forward logic.
20/01/2011 03:25:56 PM
- 924 Views
sorry Joel but you haven't
20/01/2011 03:29:49 PM
- 728 Views
It's there; in this thread alone people from both sides of the aisle have acknowledged that.
20/01/2011 05:51:21 PM
- 823 Views
only in your does the connection exisit
20/01/2011 06:39:35 PM
- 856 Views
No.
20/01/2011 07:35:09 PM
- 935 Views
dude wake up
20/01/2011 08:54:33 PM
- 1075 Views
Fine, I have no problem dropping the "right" label in my condemnations.
20/01/2011 10:39:34 PM
- 1051 Views
Why not just blame Giffords?
17/01/2011 06:07:14 PM
- 1151 Views
Indeed, why not; Sarah Palin does.
18/01/2011 06:58:01 PM
- 970 Views
The left are the ones storing up hate with their pathetic slaner
18/01/2011 07:53:23 PM
- 926 Views
At least 95% of the blame is Loughners; he's a nut, but that doesn't exonerate the demagogues.
18/01/2011 11:24:11 PM
- 1021 Views
0% belongs to political rhetoric from the right
19/01/2011 02:47:56 PM
- 789 Views
Uh huh; it's absurd to mention right wing rhetoric when left wing rhetoric is the OBVIOUS culprit
19/01/2011 02:59:41 PM
- 831 Views
No leftist rhetoric? You just called a bunch of people 'dangeorus lunatics'
19/01/2011 03:37:54 PM
- 800 Views
Rhetoric is one thing, but I didn't use violent imagery, did I?
20/01/2011 01:40:14 AM
- 1124 Views
no but the democratic party used very similar images in the same state
20/01/2011 06:41:19 PM
- 859 Views
It's news to me, but I condemn all violent inflammatory imagery and rhetoric.
20/01/2011 07:13:18 PM
- 829 Views
it was the national democrats
20/01/2011 08:32:01 PM
- 930 Views
Then that's equally dangerous and reprehensible and more reason to loathe the DLC and DCCC.
20/01/2011 09:49:08 PM
- 1199 Views
The right is not the ones claiming rhetoric is the issue
19/01/2011 03:58:39 PM
- 843 Views
"WE aren't doing it, except for when we are". Admission of guilt is a poor defense.
20/01/2011 03:25:16 AM
- 817 Views
The irony of this thread is not lost on me.
19/01/2011 04:09:01 PM
- 993 Views
Bizarre thread for that Soapbox
19/01/2011 05:17:58 PM
- 741 Views
You missed the point, obviously.
19/01/2011 06:04:23 PM
- 850 Views
That I knew it would go this way is why I avoided looking closely for so long.
19/01/2011 11:20:44 PM
- 998 Views
Re: OK, I'm Officially Sick of the "Blood Libel" BS.
22/01/2011 05:49:44 PM
- 1006 Views
We can debate whether it's coincidental, but the connections are documented fact
22/01/2011 08:17:24 PM
- 976 Views