Did Giffords say Palins use of crosshairs on her district could lead to something like this? Watch the tapes.
She can say what she wants, the facts prove that was not the case. Giffords doesn't get a halo or oracular ability from being attacked, ya know. If anything, what we see from this case is that lunatics often attack people for no sane reason, not the first time we've seen a major political figure injured by someone who's motives were simply inexplicable... almost like they lost the ability to engage in reason.
This is kinda the first big flaw in your argument, and you simply keep ignoring. Repeating that Giffords said she thought it could cause violence simply won't make the comment by her any more relevant. And yes, she was wrong in my opinion to make that statement as the rhetoric aimed at her by them did not exceed already common levels of rhetoric. It might not seem so to her, or to you, but you might want to take it on faith that the right doe snot view rhetoric from the left as particularly cheerful and civil. Or were you under the impression it is nice and polite to refer to an entire large ideology and its leaders in particular as violent stupid raving lunatics is 'civil'? And without 2) then yes, your whole case falls apart.
Both the specific argument and the more general one at the end; I'll address them in that order; since sequentially listing facts isn't getting through, let's try a syllogism: 1) Giffords' stated Palins crosshairs imagery would have "consequences"; 2) Palin calls such statements "blood libel": Therefore, 3) Palin accused Giffords of "blood libel". Giffords and Palin can both say what they want (though I believe the SCOTUS is very clear that right stops well short of inciting violence) but if, as you say, "the facts prove" Giffords wrong, then Palins charge against her of "blood libel" is true. Good luck getting any court outside the Cato Institute to agree "the facts prove" any such thing though. And if "the facts prove" no such thing, Palins charge of "blood libel" is ITSELF libel, because she's publicly accusing someone of something they didn't do. Sarah's welcome to try it, but I suspect if it went to a civil trial to decide who libeled whom the jury would side with the woman who has a bullet hole through her head--especially since the subject of the trial would be whether she was right to feel threatened by Palins imagery.
As to cheerful civility, no law requires either in political rhetoric, though the latter is definitely desirable and sorely lacking on both sides. I've lost a lot of my own once scrupulous and well regarded civility the past couple years (gee, I can't imagine why, though it remains wrong). I've really TRIED to regain my compusure, but when one of the most liberal Congressmen in Barry Goldwaters home state is gunned down along with 18 others and the far rights reaction is "we had nothing to do with it and you liberals should stop persecuting us since he was one of YOU anyway!" it's quite a challenge. Every single thing that's ever gone wrong in world history is somehow the lefts fault if you ask the far right. Even Hitler was a leftist now in the minds of the US far right (but no one else, then or now), and that's somehow proof that a man who read Ayn Rand, Mein Kampf and Nietzsche (who Hitler, rightly or not, claimed as a major inspiration) before exercising his Second Amendment rights against perhaps the most liberal Congressman in his state (the same state that produced "extremism in defence of liberty is no vice" ) is somehow a flaming liberal because he also happens to have read the Communist Manifesto.
Can you see how some on the left MIGHT be slightly less than civil in the face of that? Six people are dead and thirteen others (including at least one conservative) wounded because someone tried to murder one of our own over her politics, and it's somehow our fault yet again because the far right demagogues and their supporters deny all accountability. I could shrug off the rhetoric after noting its inaccuracy, have in the past, but the woman who coined the term "death panels" wants to talk about libel while Gabrielle Giffords tries to learn how to speak again and a nine year old girl is buried. Nineteen people were SHOT and even though it's absurdly disingenuous to say the shooter (who had a MySpace account as well as one on Palins beloved FB) was wholly uninfluenced by far right demagogues those demagogues are insisting, as stridently and belligerently as ever, that they refuse to do anything differently, because there's NO possibility they contributed. I don't care so little about my country or its citizens that I'm willing to just "be the bigger man" and walk away this time, because if the inciteful rhetoric continues so will the killing, and I pity us all if you can't see that.
'Cos here's the thing, man: There are plenty of people on both sides who are confrontational and argumentative, always have been and always will be. That's shameful and regrettable, and I don't deny I've indulged in it to my cost in the past, though I'm making a conscious effort to do so no more. Where it crosses a line, however, is when we start portraying our opponents as traitors, terrorists, godless, and routinely use militant violent imagery to say they must be not simply resisted but actively destroyed at any cost. I don't give anyone a free pass there, avoid Kos in no small part for this very reason, but I did note your statement that they used bullseyes the same way Palin used crosshairs, and I believe it both because I consider you credible and them capable of that. That's every bit as wrong, but, far worse, it's every bit as DANGEROUS. Not in the sense of eroding freedom or jeopardizing democracy, though that's a real risk also, but in the sense of encouraging unstable and/or extreme political fanatics to match their violent rhetoric with actions.
I try to choose words very carefully, as much to avoid condoning as to avoid appearing sympathetic to violence. Just because I know what I mean doesn't mean every whackjob who reads my words does, but apparently Sarah Palin thinks it's more important to use crosshairs and talk about "Real America" than to avoid the risk of inciting violence; perhaps she's incapable of articulating her views without invoking a weapon, but that just implies all the fears about her are correct. You'll surely note I didn't mince words here, but I managed to be very clear and firm, as well as somewhat confrontational, while refraining from language that even MIGHT be taken to encourage or condone violence; I certainly wasn't forced to be terse. Anyone unwilling to even consider that risk, moderate THEMSELVES in the interest of not inciting murder, is no one to listen to on the subject of politics or anything else.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
This message last edited by Joel on 20/01/2011 at 01:14:25 AM
OK, I'm Officially Sick of the "Blood Libel" BS.
16/01/2011 12:18:22 PM
- 1991 Views
Why are they calling it "blood libel"?
16/01/2011 12:23:47 PM
- 853 Views
Because if the facts were as they represent them those words would be applicable.
16/01/2011 12:49:22 PM
- 1031 Views
It's not entirely clear to me whether you're aware of this or not, but...
16/01/2011 01:12:22 PM
- 1075 Views
I think Alan Dershowitz dealt with this nonsense already
16/01/2011 02:34:10 PM
- 1368 Views
Interesting. I didn't realize it was so wide-spread.
16/01/2011 03:10:28 PM
- 928 Views
She wasn't even the first to use the term that week either
16/01/2011 10:10:35 PM
- 930 Views
I don't know that "expert" has anything to do with it.
16/01/2011 10:18:54 PM
- 958 Views
Oh please don't you start to
17/01/2011 02:34:43 PM
- 811 Views
I for one hadn't noticed it before.
17/01/2011 10:25:57 PM
- 981 Views
it was used here and nobody commented
17/01/2011 10:37:07 PM
- 871 Views
LOL, I totally forgot that got posted here
17/01/2011 10:54:26 PM
- 923 Views
It's funny you should say that...
18/01/2011 10:32:59 PM
- 952 Views
Precisely: I noticed, but it hadn't become a rallying cry for "the real victim" (Palin).
19/01/2011 12:14:48 AM
- 1062 Views
I thought you were the real vicitim
19/01/2011 02:49:06 PM
- 1035 Views
When and where did I say that? The ultimate victim is America, but six members of it just died.
19/01/2011 11:24:27 PM
- 756 Views
Re: It's funny you should say that...
19/01/2011 03:29:52 PM
- 939 Views
It was permissible to ignore until it became a rallying cry.
20/01/2011 04:27:23 PM
- 963 Views
Oh, I noticed that one alright.
18/01/2011 10:25:23 PM
- 794 Views
but is he accussed of being a tasteless moron who doesn't know what it means?
19/01/2011 02:28:03 PM
- 840 Views
I don't know, if I have to judge him based on that one article, then tasteless moron, absolutely.
19/01/2011 06:14:43 PM
- 954 Views
The peole who called her stupid for using the term didn't know it was so wide spread either
17/01/2011 02:33:19 PM
- 813 Views
Indeed, my response to Legolas references Wikipedias quotation of him.
16/01/2011 10:24:09 PM
- 1007 Views
Re: Indeed, my response to Legolas references Wikipedias quotation of him.
16/01/2011 11:09:21 PM
- 1037 Views
Again, Giffords specifically made the connection between Palins imagery and an attack on her.
17/01/2011 12:53:08 AM
- 1174 Views
That means precisely nothing
17/01/2011 03:59:07 PM
- 871 Views
It means everything.
18/01/2011 08:34:55 PM
- 1142 Views
I'm trying to understand your logic
19/01/2011 12:50:28 AM
- 747 Views
There are two points:
19/01/2011 02:47:48 AM
- 934 Views
I don't agree, but I understand. *NM*
19/01/2011 10:14:13 PM
- 458 Views
Giffords' statements and Palins are matters of public record; they're indisputable.
19/01/2011 11:34:53 PM
- 910 Views
I must say, if more people on both sides could say that we'd all be better for it.
20/01/2011 04:32:55 AM
- 953 Views
Re: It means everything.
19/01/2011 05:55:02 PM
- 773 Views
That's simply illogical.
20/01/2011 01:08:51 AM
- 1152 Views
the old step one steal underwear step three profit argument
19/01/2011 06:01:14 PM
- 1027 Views
Your inability/unwillingness to follow basic and clearly delineated logic is not my failing.
20/01/2011 01:19:31 AM
- 849 Views
I admit I can't follow gnome logic *NM*
20/01/2011 05:50:22 AM
- 448 Views
I demonstrated the connection, whether or not you choose to look the other way.
20/01/2011 03:16:28 PM
- 925 Views
that is some twisted and bizarre logic
17/01/2011 02:38:41 PM
- 971 Views
Giffords said Palins crosshairs imagery would have "consequences"; Palin calls the suggestion libel.
18/01/2011 08:54:45 PM
- 864 Views
yes but the only consequences is liberals using them to slander Palin
19/01/2011 02:58:35 PM
- 945 Views
I read Toms reply; I don't think he exactly vindicated your position, nor meant to do so.
20/01/2011 01:52:37 AM
- 1181 Views
It was an example of blaming the victim, a phrase you keep misusing
20/01/2011 06:28:21 PM
- 887 Views
I thought you said only liberals blinded by political bias committed that grave sin.
20/01/2011 07:47:09 PM
- 934 Views
so in other words you again missed the point
20/01/2011 08:26:49 PM
- 882 Views
Well, one of us did.
20/01/2011 09:24:35 PM
- 996 Views
so lets be clear do you or don't you understand what it means to "blame the vicitm"?
20/01/2011 10:03:48 PM
- 638 Views
I understand it well; can we be equally clear you say the victim here is Palin?
20/01/2011 10:44:08 PM
- 1070 Views
So I am a little confused on something...
16/01/2011 02:38:59 PM
- 1028 Views
Palin putting Giffords district in the crosshairs and Giffords implying at the time she feared this
16/01/2011 11:21:36 PM
- 1164 Views
If I understand what you are saying correctly...
17/01/2011 07:07:56 AM
- 900 Views
I'm sorry you so badly misunderstand.
17/01/2011 08:33:47 AM
- 911 Views
Re: I'm sorry you so badly misunderstand.
17/01/2011 04:24:01 PM
- 964 Views
The Secret Service does guard Congressmen, just not all of them automatically.
18/01/2011 09:13:39 PM
- 798 Views
No, they don't
18/01/2011 10:19:34 PM
- 985 Views
Really? Cannoli says differently, and I believe he's right on that one.
18/01/2011 10:50:51 PM
- 1066 Views
You seem to be reading what you want to from what I said
19/01/2011 01:27:32 PM
- 914 Views
I read what you said & understood it as you restate here, hence I referenced local police (twice)
20/01/2011 02:15:17 AM
- 951 Views
The problem here is your ignoring normal policing powers to concoct an absurdity
20/01/2011 04:20:25 PM
- 1001 Views
More absurd than the notion such incitement warrants no notice?
20/01/2011 05:42:47 PM
- 1060 Views
really because people post that kind of crap daily and nothing happens
20/01/2011 05:57:52 PM
- 857 Views
I thought waterboarding was OK and any suggestion to the contrary was terrorist sympathizing.
20/01/2011 07:54:05 PM
- 811 Views
way to dodge the point again
20/01/2011 08:34:33 PM
- 819 Views
Do you have an example of a credible threat of injury to a Congressman, or calls for one?
20/01/2011 10:02:53 PM
- 901 Views
Your shifting your original premise, *again*
20/01/2011 08:24:18 PM
- 885 Views
No, you're simply missing the point of it.
20/01/2011 11:09:57 PM
- 884 Views
Uh...Last I checked conservatives didn't list the Communist Manifesto as a favourite book.
16/01/2011 03:05:07 PM
- 1201 Views
Libs hate Mein Kampf and We the Living; conservatives hate the Communist Manifesto: He's neither.
16/01/2011 10:06:02 PM
- 901 Views
conseartives hate Mein Kampf and liberals stil read the Communist Manifesto
17/01/2011 02:57:22 PM
- 880 Views
That first line is says it all.
18/01/2011 09:34:06 PM
- 961 Views
Nazis had more in common with communist then capitalist
19/01/2011 04:10:09 PM
- 1070 Views
The founder of fascism called it "the merger of corporate and national power".
20/01/2011 02:51:09 AM
- 953 Views
It is to be expected that this site would be libtard central...
16/01/2011 05:23:53 PM
- 1155 Views
Again, I don't think Palin intended this, but Giffords feared ten months ago that this could result.
16/01/2011 11:29:19 PM
- 961 Views
And I call bullshit
18/01/2011 03:12:13 PM
- 1102 Views
If Palin wants to accuse Giffords of libel she should have the guts to do it to her face.
18/01/2011 10:39:07 PM
- 1059 Views
So if some jihadist shot Gifford, would you also blame Palin?
19/01/2011 02:52:42 PM
- 943 Views
don't get ti doesn't matter who is to blame it just matters if they can use it *NM*
19/01/2011 04:11:09 PM
- 426 Views
No, I'd blame the shooter first and the mullahs shouting, "JIHAD111" second, as I always do.
20/01/2011 03:11:33 AM
- 1041 Views
Then why are you even here? I pretty much agree with you entirely and I'm fairly liberal. *NM*
18/01/2011 01:16:33 PM
- 535 Views
Palin didn't really have anything to do with this, but it makes sense she's blamed.
16/01/2011 10:19:51 PM
- 881 Views
Did they ever catch the person(s) that vandalized Gifford's office? *NM*
17/01/2011 03:30:36 AM
- 448 Views
I didn't realize someone had, but it appears a militia leader was responsible (shocking, I know).
17/01/2011 07:04:08 AM
- 897 Views
politcal offices are vandalized on a regular basis *NM*
17/01/2011 02:41:29 PM
- 408 Views
She only asked if they caught the guy, she didn't accuse anyone, Sarah.
18/01/2011 11:27:18 PM
- 847 Views
Took you this long, huh?
17/01/2011 01:53:31 PM
- 801 Views
I didn't want to look because I was afraid the charges against the far right demagogues might stick.
18/01/2011 11:07:26 PM
- 1124 Views
I am sick of the desperate attempts of liberals to find a way to use a tragedy
17/01/2011 02:31:18 PM
- 816 Views
I'm just curious.
17/01/2011 03:23:47 PM
- 792 Views
Had that convo with the cab driver on the way home from a New Years party.
18/01/2011 11:42:07 PM
- 1085 Views
If slander, not mine, Giffords' (at least you don't err like Palin and say, "libel" ).
18/01/2011 11:14:23 PM
- 1009 Views
mark you calendar today is the day Joel offically went around the bend into insanity
19/01/2011 05:28:06 PM
- 815 Views
A mirror will show me who's to blame? On whom have I put a crosshairs?
20/01/2011 03:23:43 AM
- 869 Views
so it is all a matter of faith for you
20/01/2011 05:48:44 AM
- 819 Views
No, it's fairly straight forward logic.
20/01/2011 03:25:56 PM
- 924 Views
sorry Joel but you haven't
20/01/2011 03:29:49 PM
- 728 Views
It's there; in this thread alone people from both sides of the aisle have acknowledged that.
20/01/2011 05:51:21 PM
- 823 Views
only in your does the connection exisit
20/01/2011 06:39:35 PM
- 856 Views
No.
20/01/2011 07:35:09 PM
- 935 Views
dude wake up
20/01/2011 08:54:33 PM
- 1075 Views
Fine, I have no problem dropping the "right" label in my condemnations.
20/01/2011 10:39:34 PM
- 1051 Views
Why not just blame Giffords?
17/01/2011 06:07:14 PM
- 1151 Views
Indeed, why not; Sarah Palin does.
18/01/2011 06:58:01 PM
- 970 Views
The left are the ones storing up hate with their pathetic slaner
18/01/2011 07:53:23 PM
- 926 Views
At least 95% of the blame is Loughners; he's a nut, but that doesn't exonerate the demagogues.
18/01/2011 11:24:11 PM
- 1021 Views
0% belongs to political rhetoric from the right
19/01/2011 02:47:56 PM
- 789 Views
Uh huh; it's absurd to mention right wing rhetoric when left wing rhetoric is the OBVIOUS culprit
19/01/2011 02:59:41 PM
- 831 Views
No leftist rhetoric? You just called a bunch of people 'dangeorus lunatics'
19/01/2011 03:37:54 PM
- 800 Views
Rhetoric is one thing, but I didn't use violent imagery, did I?
20/01/2011 01:40:14 AM
- 1124 Views
no but the democratic party used very similar images in the same state
20/01/2011 06:41:19 PM
- 859 Views
It's news to me, but I condemn all violent inflammatory imagery and rhetoric.
20/01/2011 07:13:18 PM
- 829 Views
it was the national democrats
20/01/2011 08:32:01 PM
- 930 Views
Then that's equally dangerous and reprehensible and more reason to loathe the DLC and DCCC.
20/01/2011 09:49:08 PM
- 1199 Views
The right is not the ones claiming rhetoric is the issue
19/01/2011 03:58:39 PM
- 843 Views
"WE aren't doing it, except for when we are". Admission of guilt is a poor defense.
20/01/2011 03:25:16 AM
- 817 Views
The irony of this thread is not lost on me.
19/01/2011 04:09:01 PM
- 993 Views
Bizarre thread for that Soapbox
19/01/2011 05:17:58 PM
- 741 Views
You missed the point, obviously.
19/01/2011 06:04:23 PM
- 850 Views
That I knew it would go this way is why I avoided looking closely for so long.
19/01/2011 11:20:44 PM
- 998 Views
Re: OK, I'm Officially Sick of the "Blood Libel" BS.
22/01/2011 05:49:44 PM
- 1006 Views
We can debate whether it's coincidental, but the connections are documented fact
22/01/2011 08:17:24 PM
- 976 Views