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That I knew it would go this way is why I avoided looking closely for so long. Joel Send a noteboard - 19/01/2011 11:20:44 PM
The only people still active in it are basically just shooting off back and forth with... Nuh uh, you're wrong! Nope, you're wrong! But, you know, with a great deal more rhetoric. That's funny since the post, and the position of the remaining active threads, is that the other's, not their own, rhetoric is partially to blame here.

A nice microcosm of the national media and political sound bytes here... and nothing but more noise.

It's very tempting to throw up my hands and say, "to hell with it!" However, it's no longer a purely academic matter where we can afford to just agree to disagree (if it ever was that). Nineteen people were shot and six of them, including a nine year old girl, are dead. It's fairly clear Loughner was apolitical, but with a MySpace and Facebook account to complement his violently anti-government conspiracy theories it's absurd to say he was obvlivious to all the paranoid extremist hate mongering of the past two years. Sure, he may not have aligned with the political right OR left, but the sad truth is the Tea Party couldn't have directed their rhetoric at him any better if they'd tried.

Yet instead of acknowledging the near certainty their rhetoric nudged an already violent and unstable mind over the edge we're told that's libel. It's dishonorable and exploitive to say the far right influenced him at all--especially when he was OBVIOUSLY a liberal. Let's see, political checklist:

1) Reads Ayn Rand (like Ron Paul, who named his son after her): Conservative

2) Reads Hitler: Conservative

3) Reads Nietzsche, whom Hitler claimed as a primary inspiration: Conservative

4) Vehemently opposed a woman who may be the most liberal Congressman in the state that produced Goldwater and McCain: Conservative

5) Supports the Second Amendment as an absolute invioable right: Conservative

6) Reads Marx: Liberal

Yeah, how could anyone fail to see he's a liberal...?

It's fairly clear Loughner was an apolitical whackjob; he seems to have thought anyone even indirectly affiliated with government was part of a dehumanizing conspiracy against the human race, and had he been told one of the people he murdered was a conservative Republican it wouldn't have slowed him down for a minute. But this didn't happen in a vacuum, and the conceit he was utterly uninfluenced by all the paranoid militant hatred, not to mention inaccuracies and outright lies, spewed against Obama and his supporters over the last two years is worse than disingenuous: It's catastrophically dangerous. Palin and Co. wash their hands of him and say there's no way their inflammatory and often false rhetoric accusing Obama of everything from faking his birth certificate to treason to being a madrasa trained terrorist encouraged this. That frankly reminds me of non-violent Klansmen insisting strident demands for racial purity had NOTHING to do with the latest lynching, that "race war" is just a colorful term, not an invitation to murder--except Palin and her ilk go one step further and accuse those who say otherwise of libel.

I'm not saying anyone but Loughner should be prosecuted; he's the murderer here. But if there's even the SLIGHTEST chance all the inflammatory right wing rhetoric, the portrayals of Obama as a treasonous terrorist, the quotations of "extremism in defence of liberty is no vice" like it's gospel contributed to this, isn't it past time we toned it down a bit? Isn't it a bit irresponsible to shrug off that suggestion and continue business as usual, let alone indignantly call it libel, play the victim when six people are dead and 13 others injured? I submit that, deep down in their hearts, past the political bias where objective truth slumbers fitfully, the reason the demagogues attacked that suggestion as vehemently and belligerently as they've unceasingly done with Obama is because they know they played a role and are too locked into a "never retreat" mentality to admit it.

Meanwhile, my main point in THIS thread stands: Whether or not calling Palins crosshairs imagery dangerous IS "blood libel" it is a matter of FACT that Gabrielle Giffords called it that AND that Sarah Palin (among others) call THAT "blood libel". Once again, anyone convinced that kind of rhetoric didn't put her in danger should take it up with the woman who was shot.
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This message last edited by Joel on 20/01/2011 at 03:32:22 AM
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OK, I'm Officially Sick of the "Blood Libel" BS. - 16/01/2011 12:18:22 PM 1989 Views
Why are they calling it "blood libel"? - 16/01/2011 12:23:47 PM 851 Views
Because if the facts were as they represent them those words would be applicable. - 16/01/2011 12:49:22 PM 1029 Views
It's not entirely clear to me whether you're aware of this or not, but... - 16/01/2011 01:12:22 PM 1074 Views
That's why I said, "popularized". - 16/01/2011 01:46:52 PM 1024 Views
I think Alan Dershowitz dealt with this nonsense already - 16/01/2011 02:34:10 PM 1366 Views
Interesting. I didn't realize it was so wide-spread. - 16/01/2011 03:10:28 PM 925 Views
She wasn't even the first to use the term that week either - 16/01/2011 10:10:35 PM 928 Views
I don't know that "expert" has anything to do with it. - 16/01/2011 10:18:54 PM 956 Views
Re: I don't know that "expert" has anything to do with it. - 16/01/2011 11:30:38 PM 853 Views
Oh please don't you start to - 17/01/2011 02:34:43 PM 809 Views
I for one hadn't noticed it before. - 17/01/2011 10:25:57 PM 979 Views
it was used here and nobody commented - 17/01/2011 10:37:07 PM 869 Views
LOL, I totally forgot that got posted here - 17/01/2011 10:54:26 PM 920 Views
It's funny you should say that... - 18/01/2011 10:32:59 PM 952 Views
Re: It's funny you should say that... - 19/01/2011 03:29:52 PM 938 Views
It was permissible to ignore until it became a rallying cry. - 20/01/2011 04:27:23 PM 961 Views
A rallying cry is hardly illegal - 20/01/2011 05:32:45 PM 1013 Views
I never said it was. - 20/01/2011 06:59:39 PM 1145 Views
Oh, I noticed that one alright. - 18/01/2011 10:25:23 PM 792 Views
compared to the way similar terms are used? - 19/01/2011 06:58:02 PM 937 Views
I meant I hadn't seen it used in different contexts before. - 19/01/2011 07:35:00 PM 919 Views
Indeed, my response to Legolas references Wikipedias quotation of him. - 16/01/2011 10:24:09 PM 1005 Views
Re: Indeed, my response to Legolas references Wikipedias quotation of him. - 16/01/2011 11:09:21 PM 1035 Views
Again, Giffords specifically made the connection between Palins imagery and an attack on her. - 17/01/2011 12:53:08 AM 1172 Views
That means precisely nothing - 17/01/2011 03:59:07 PM 871 Views
It means everything. - 18/01/2011 08:34:55 PM 1140 Views
I'm trying to understand your logic - 19/01/2011 12:50:28 AM 745 Views
There are two points: - 19/01/2011 02:47:48 AM 932 Views
Re: It means everything. - 19/01/2011 05:55:02 PM 771 Views
That's simply illogical. - 20/01/2011 01:08:51 AM 1149 Views
the old step one steal underwear step three profit argument - 19/01/2011 06:01:14 PM 1025 Views
that is some twisted and bizarre logic - 17/01/2011 02:38:41 PM 970 Views
So I am a little confused on something... - 16/01/2011 02:38:59 PM 1028 Views
Palin putting Giffords district in the crosshairs and Giffords implying at the time she feared this - 16/01/2011 11:21:36 PM 1162 Views
If I understand what you are saying correctly... - 17/01/2011 07:07:56 AM 899 Views
I'm sorry you so badly misunderstand. - 17/01/2011 08:33:47 AM 908 Views
Re: I'm sorry you so badly misunderstand. - 17/01/2011 04:24:01 PM 962 Views
The Secret Service does guard Congressmen, just not all of them automatically. - 18/01/2011 09:13:39 PM 798 Views
No, they don't - 18/01/2011 10:19:34 PM 985 Views
Really? Cannoli says differently, and I believe he's right on that one. - 18/01/2011 10:50:51 PM 1064 Views
You seem to be reading what you want to from what I said - 19/01/2011 01:27:32 PM 914 Views
I read what you said & understood it as you restate here, hence I referenced local police (twice) - 20/01/2011 02:15:17 AM 949 Views
The problem here is your ignoring normal policing powers to concoct an absurdity - 20/01/2011 04:20:25 PM 999 Views
More absurd than the notion such incitement warrants no notice? - 20/01/2011 05:42:47 PM 1059 Views
Your shifting your original premise, *again* - 20/01/2011 08:24:18 PM 884 Views
No, you're simply missing the point of it. - 20/01/2011 11:09:57 PM 882 Views
There is no point - 21/01/2011 12:22:30 AM 928 Views
If I had no point I wouldn't bother, but fair enough. - 21/01/2011 01:20:32 AM 1178 Views
Uh...Last I checked conservatives didn't list the Communist Manifesto as a favourite book. - 16/01/2011 03:05:07 PM 1199 Views
You're awesome at missing points, aren't you? - 16/01/2011 07:26:30 PM 943 Views
where is the accountability for those committing slander? - 17/01/2011 02:52:40 PM 853 Views
Libs hate Mein Kampf and We the Living; conservatives hate the Communist Manifesto: He's neither. - 16/01/2011 10:06:02 PM 899 Views
conseartives hate Mein Kampf and liberals stil read the Communist Manifesto - 17/01/2011 02:57:22 PM 878 Views
That first line is says it all. - 18/01/2011 09:34:06 PM 961 Views
Nazis had more in common with communist then capitalist - 19/01/2011 04:10:09 PM 1067 Views
The founder of fascism called it "the merger of corporate and national power". - 20/01/2011 02:51:09 AM 951 Views
and that is supposed to mean something? - 20/01/2011 06:06:18 PM 989 Views
YOU are cherry picking. - 20/01/2011 07:50:21 PM 895 Views
It is to be expected that this site would be libtard central... - 16/01/2011 05:23:53 PM 1155 Views
See my reply to Dragonsoul above. - 16/01/2011 07:30:40 PM 1003 Views
Yeah, your first was better - 16/01/2011 09:48:58 PM 815 Views
Palin didn't really have anything to do with this, but it makes sense she's blamed. - 16/01/2011 10:19:51 PM 878 Views
Pretty much. - 16/01/2011 11:44:35 PM 962 Views
Did they ever catch the person(s) that vandalized Gifford's office? *NM* - 17/01/2011 03:30:36 AM 448 Views
politcal offices are vandalized on a regular basis *NM* - 17/01/2011 02:41:29 PM 408 Views
She only asked if they caught the guy, she didn't accuse anyone, Sarah. - 18/01/2011 11:27:18 PM 845 Views
OK Olberman when did I imply otherwise? *NM* - 19/01/2011 02:48:41 PM 459 Views
"Political offices are vandalized on a regular basis". - 20/01/2011 03:16:39 AM 1039 Views
Took you this long, huh? - 17/01/2011 01:53:31 PM 798 Views
I am sick of the desperate attempts of liberals to find a way to use a tragedy - 17/01/2011 02:31:18 PM 814 Views
I'm just curious. - 17/01/2011 03:23:47 PM 790 Views
Re: I'm just curious. - 17/01/2011 03:28:04 PM 932 Views
I always said I'd do that after Bush was re-elected. - 18/01/2011 11:52:45 PM 814 Views
like I said a matter of faith - 17/01/2011 04:27:51 PM 804 Views
I find it interesting... - 17/01/2011 05:31:54 PM 952 Views
I mention her looks solely because... - 20/01/2011 02:30:42 PM 823 Views
If slander, not mine, Giffords' (at least you don't err like Palin and say, "libel" ). - 18/01/2011 11:14:23 PM 1007 Views
mark you calendar today is the day Joel offically went around the bend into insanity - 19/01/2011 05:28:06 PM 813 Views
A mirror will show me who's to blame? On whom have I put a crosshairs? - 20/01/2011 03:23:43 AM 867 Views
so it is all a matter of faith for you - 20/01/2011 05:48:44 AM 818 Views
No, it's fairly straight forward logic. - 20/01/2011 03:25:56 PM 923 Views
sorry Joel but you haven't - 20/01/2011 03:29:49 PM 728 Views
It's there; in this thread alone people from both sides of the aisle have acknowledged that. - 20/01/2011 05:51:21 PM 821 Views
only in your does the connection exisit - 20/01/2011 06:39:35 PM 855 Views
No. - 20/01/2011 07:35:09 PM 934 Views
dude wake up - 20/01/2011 08:54:33 PM 1074 Views
So in your opinion... - 17/01/2011 05:27:58 PM 804 Views
How 'bout simply color coding them? - 18/01/2011 11:21:03 PM 852 Views
Why not just blame Giffords? - 17/01/2011 06:07:14 PM 1150 Views
Indeed, why not; Sarah Palin does. - 18/01/2011 06:58:01 PM 970 Views
The irony of this thread is not lost on me. - 19/01/2011 04:09:01 PM 991 Views
Exactly. *NM* - 19/01/2011 04:51:40 PM 497 Views
Bizarre thread for that Soapbox - 19/01/2011 05:17:58 PM 740 Views
You missed the point, obviously. - 19/01/2011 06:04:23 PM 850 Views
so you are saying it is the same old RAFO - 19/01/2011 06:47:24 PM 907 Views
The thread has admittedly degenerated - 19/01/2011 07:02:12 PM 766 Views
Check your NB. Noted you a response. *NM* - 19/01/2011 07:04:58 PM 478 Views
That I knew it would go this way is why I avoided looking closely for so long. - 19/01/2011 11:20:44 PM 997 Views
Hey, now. I have to step in. - 20/01/2011 04:44:49 PM 1018 Views
I'm just saying a significant link can be demonstrated. - 20/01/2011 07:07:27 PM 1072 Views
Re: OK, I'm Officially Sick of the "Blood Libel" BS. - 22/01/2011 05:49:44 PM 1004 Views

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