the old step one steal underwear step three profit argument
random thoughts Send a noteboard - 19/01/2011 06:01:14 PM
Seriously, why don't you take a little time to go through your arguments and find the massive gaping logic holes, you might find it a rewarding experience. Also, why do you keep insisting Palin accused Giffords of Blood Libel? She obviously did not. You also have some really weird ideas about what Giffords reporting a threat prior to that means, you do understand that that is very common, don't you? Where are you getting this bizarre notion that Giffords alerting authorities she'd been vandalized justifies media hacks engaging in defamation?
I don't have that idea, at all, which is why I didn't say it, so maybe YOU should read what I wrote before critiquing it. I have the idea that when interviewed about the vandalism Giffords not only cited the climate of hatred and militance supposedly STILL irrelevant (despite the her and 18 others being shot) but EXPLICITLY REFERENCED PALINS USE OF CROSSHAIRS ON HER DISTRICT as something that threatened dire "consequences". I think it's absurd to say Loughner was completely uninfluenced by that climate, which Palin undeniably helped create, but that's not the primary connection between Palins website and the murders: What EXPLICITLY links Palins website imagery with Giffords is the victims reference to them PRIOR to being attacked.
Now, we can debate whether publicly suggesting Palins provocative incendiary imagery threatened her makes Giffords guilty of libel (actually slander, since it was spoken). We shouldn't, however, debate the following facts:
1) Palins website had images of Giffords' district and others under crosshairs,
2) Giffords publicly suggested that endangered her,
3) Loughner subsequently tried to kill her, and
4) In the wake of 3) Palin and Co. say the suggestion in 2) is libel.
Perhaps Palin was unaware Giffords herself made the suggestion prior to the shootings, but that only makes her "don't accuse without all the facts" hypocritical, because Giffords' suggestion was all over Palins beloved internet between the shootings and her indignant response on FB four days later. Why do you think so much of the brouhaha centers around Palin in particular? She's on the defensive so she's screaming libel, but the main person she's screaming it at is the shooters intended target, whether she knows it or not, and all ignorance of that fact would do is prove (once again) Palin doesn't have the judgement to run a hot dog stand, let alone the US government.
While the all the militant hatred Palin and others have created probably influenced Loughner, the bottom line on THIS shooting is Gabrielle Giffords originated what's been called, "blood libel" since it happened. If Palin thinks that libel she should file suit. Giffords shouldn't be hard to serve papers; she's not going anywhere for a while....
The REAL bottom line to all this is that what people like I and Giffords have been saying for the past two years has been frighteningly and tragically proven true: The kind of inflammatory, provocative, militant language Palin and the rest have used to incite hatred since Obamas election is incredibly dangerous precisely because it does encourage already unstable people to do something horrible. Lie down with dogs and wake up with fleas, but however embarrassed Sarah Palin is I think Gabrielle Giffords has taken enough bullets for her.
You sound like a murder mystery fan at a crime scene "I found a knife with blood on it on the kitchen counter! Her neighbor's prints are on the doorknob! He owns knives! Case closed! Wait, what? Oh I guess it wouldn't make sense for the murderer to pull the knife out and leave it on the kitchen counter. No I didn't realize the back door was broken or that she died of bludgeoning wounds and a paper weight covered with blood was found a few feet away and rolled under her desk. Or that her neighbor is an 85 year old woman with a spare key who was at her daughter's house with her grandchildren and her ex-boyfriend was just picked up drunk and covered with blood with no visible wounds... a clever plot indeed. The old lady must have drugged him"
YOU sound like a murderers doting mother; "I don't care about EVIDENCE, look at the FACTS and you'll SEE he's innocent!" Yet facts remain stubborn.
Did Giffords say Palins use of crosshairs on her district could lead to something like this? Watch the tapes.
Did Palin and others call that "blood libel"? Check FB and the op eds.
Those are FACTS; you can dispute them as surely as you can the specific gravity of iron--with the same chance of being right.
Did Palin mean anyone to shoot Giffords? Of course not.
Did she help fill a powder keg? As surely as the Rodney King verdict.
Those are both opinions, but they seem quite true regardless of our ability to verify either.
OK, I'm Officially Sick of the "Blood Libel" BS.
16/01/2011 12:18:22 PM
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Why are they calling it "blood libel"?
16/01/2011 12:23:47 PM
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Because if the facts were as they represent them those words would be applicable.
16/01/2011 12:49:22 PM
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It's not entirely clear to me whether you're aware of this or not, but...
16/01/2011 01:12:22 PM
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I think Alan Dershowitz dealt with this nonsense already
16/01/2011 02:34:10 PM
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Interesting. I didn't realize it was so wide-spread.
16/01/2011 03:10:28 PM
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She wasn't even the first to use the term that week either
16/01/2011 10:10:35 PM
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I don't know that "expert" has anything to do with it.
16/01/2011 10:18:54 PM
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Oh please don't you start to
17/01/2011 02:34:43 PM
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I for one hadn't noticed it before.
17/01/2011 10:25:57 PM
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it was used here and nobody commented
17/01/2011 10:37:07 PM
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LOL, I totally forgot that got posted here
17/01/2011 10:54:26 PM
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It's funny you should say that...
18/01/2011 10:32:59 PM
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Precisely: I noticed, but it hadn't become a rallying cry for "the real victim" (Palin).
19/01/2011 12:14:48 AM
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I thought you were the real vicitim
19/01/2011 02:49:06 PM
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When and where did I say that? The ultimate victim is America, but six members of it just died.
19/01/2011 11:24:27 PM
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Re: It's funny you should say that...
19/01/2011 03:29:52 PM
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It was permissible to ignore until it became a rallying cry.
20/01/2011 04:27:23 PM
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Oh, I noticed that one alright.
18/01/2011 10:25:23 PM
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but is he accussed of being a tasteless moron who doesn't know what it means?
19/01/2011 02:28:03 PM
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I don't know, if I have to judge him based on that one article, then tasteless moron, absolutely.
19/01/2011 06:14:43 PM
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The peole who called her stupid for using the term didn't know it was so wide spread either
17/01/2011 02:33:19 PM
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Indeed, my response to Legolas references Wikipedias quotation of him.
16/01/2011 10:24:09 PM
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Re: Indeed, my response to Legolas references Wikipedias quotation of him.
16/01/2011 11:09:21 PM
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Again, Giffords specifically made the connection between Palins imagery and an attack on her.
17/01/2011 12:53:08 AM
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That means precisely nothing
17/01/2011 03:59:07 PM
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It means everything.
18/01/2011 08:34:55 PM
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I'm trying to understand your logic
19/01/2011 12:50:28 AM
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There are two points:
19/01/2011 02:47:48 AM
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I don't agree, but I understand. *NM*
19/01/2011 10:14:13 PM
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Giffords' statements and Palins are matters of public record; they're indisputable.
19/01/2011 11:34:53 PM
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I must say, if more people on both sides could say that we'd all be better for it.
20/01/2011 04:32:55 AM
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the old step one steal underwear step three profit argument
19/01/2011 06:01:14 PM
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Your inability/unwillingness to follow basic and clearly delineated logic is not my failing.
20/01/2011 01:19:31 AM
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I admit I can't follow gnome logic *NM*
20/01/2011 05:50:22 AM
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I demonstrated the connection, whether or not you choose to look the other way.
20/01/2011 03:16:28 PM
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that is some twisted and bizarre logic
17/01/2011 02:38:41 PM
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Giffords said Palins crosshairs imagery would have "consequences"; Palin calls the suggestion libel.
18/01/2011 08:54:45 PM
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yes but the only consequences is liberals using them to slander Palin
19/01/2011 02:58:35 PM
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I read Toms reply; I don't think he exactly vindicated your position, nor meant to do so.
20/01/2011 01:52:37 AM
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It was an example of blaming the victim, a phrase you keep misusing
20/01/2011 06:28:21 PM
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I thought you said only liberals blinded by political bias committed that grave sin.
20/01/2011 07:47:09 PM
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so in other words you again missed the point
20/01/2011 08:26:49 PM
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Well, one of us did.
20/01/2011 09:24:35 PM
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so lets be clear do you or don't you understand what it means to "blame the vicitm"?
20/01/2011 10:03:48 PM
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I understand it well; can we be equally clear you say the victim here is Palin?
20/01/2011 10:44:08 PM
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So I am a little confused on something...
16/01/2011 02:38:59 PM
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Palin putting Giffords district in the crosshairs and Giffords implying at the time she feared this
16/01/2011 11:21:36 PM
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If I understand what you are saying correctly...
17/01/2011 07:07:56 AM
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I'm sorry you so badly misunderstand.
17/01/2011 08:33:47 AM
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Re: I'm sorry you so badly misunderstand.
17/01/2011 04:24:01 PM
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The Secret Service does guard Congressmen, just not all of them automatically.
18/01/2011 09:13:39 PM
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No, they don't
18/01/2011 10:19:34 PM
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Really? Cannoli says differently, and I believe he's right on that one.
18/01/2011 10:50:51 PM
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You seem to be reading what you want to from what I said
19/01/2011 01:27:32 PM
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I read what you said & understood it as you restate here, hence I referenced local police (twice)
20/01/2011 02:15:17 AM
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The problem here is your ignoring normal policing powers to concoct an absurdity
20/01/2011 04:20:25 PM
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More absurd than the notion such incitement warrants no notice?
20/01/2011 05:42:47 PM
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really because people post that kind of crap daily and nothing happens
20/01/2011 05:57:52 PM
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I thought waterboarding was OK and any suggestion to the contrary was terrorist sympathizing.
20/01/2011 07:54:05 PM
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way to dodge the point again
20/01/2011 08:34:33 PM
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Do you have an example of a credible threat of injury to a Congressman, or calls for one?
20/01/2011 10:02:53 PM
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Your shifting your original premise, *again*
20/01/2011 08:24:18 PM
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No, you're simply missing the point of it.
20/01/2011 11:09:57 PM
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Uh...Last I checked conservatives didn't list the Communist Manifesto as a favourite book.
16/01/2011 03:05:07 PM
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Libs hate Mein Kampf and We the Living; conservatives hate the Communist Manifesto: He's neither.
16/01/2011 10:06:02 PM
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conseartives hate Mein Kampf and liberals stil read the Communist Manifesto
17/01/2011 02:57:22 PM
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That first line is says it all.
18/01/2011 09:34:06 PM
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Nazis had more in common with communist then capitalist
19/01/2011 04:10:09 PM
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The founder of fascism called it "the merger of corporate and national power".
20/01/2011 02:51:09 AM
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It is to be expected that this site would be libtard central...
16/01/2011 05:23:53 PM
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Again, I don't think Palin intended this, but Giffords feared ten months ago that this could result.
16/01/2011 11:29:19 PM
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And I call bullshit
18/01/2011 03:12:13 PM
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If Palin wants to accuse Giffords of libel she should have the guts to do it to her face.
18/01/2011 10:39:07 PM
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So if some jihadist shot Gifford, would you also blame Palin?
19/01/2011 02:52:42 PM
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don't get ti doesn't matter who is to blame it just matters if they can use it *NM*
19/01/2011 04:11:09 PM
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No, I'd blame the shooter first and the mullahs shouting, "JIHAD111" second, as I always do.
20/01/2011 03:11:33 AM
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Then why are you even here? I pretty much agree with you entirely and I'm fairly liberal. *NM*
18/01/2011 01:16:33 PM
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Palin didn't really have anything to do with this, but it makes sense she's blamed.
16/01/2011 10:19:51 PM
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Did they ever catch the person(s) that vandalized Gifford's office? *NM*
17/01/2011 03:30:36 AM
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I didn't realize someone had, but it appears a militia leader was responsible (shocking, I know).
17/01/2011 07:04:08 AM
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politcal offices are vandalized on a regular basis *NM*
17/01/2011 02:41:29 PM
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She only asked if they caught the guy, she didn't accuse anyone, Sarah.
18/01/2011 11:27:18 PM
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Took you this long, huh?
17/01/2011 01:53:31 PM
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I didn't want to look because I was afraid the charges against the far right demagogues might stick.
18/01/2011 11:07:26 PM
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I am sick of the desperate attempts of liberals to find a way to use a tragedy
17/01/2011 02:31:18 PM
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I'm just curious.
17/01/2011 03:23:47 PM
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Had that convo with the cab driver on the way home from a New Years party.
18/01/2011 11:42:07 PM
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If slander, not mine, Giffords' (at least you don't err like Palin and say, "libel" ).
18/01/2011 11:14:23 PM
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mark you calendar today is the day Joel offically went around the bend into insanity
19/01/2011 05:28:06 PM
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A mirror will show me who's to blame? On whom have I put a crosshairs?
20/01/2011 03:23:43 AM
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so it is all a matter of faith for you
20/01/2011 05:48:44 AM
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No, it's fairly straight forward logic.
20/01/2011 03:25:56 PM
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sorry Joel but you haven't
20/01/2011 03:29:49 PM
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It's there; in this thread alone people from both sides of the aisle have acknowledged that.
20/01/2011 05:51:21 PM
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only in your does the connection exisit
20/01/2011 06:39:35 PM
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No.
20/01/2011 07:35:09 PM
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dude wake up
20/01/2011 08:54:33 PM
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Fine, I have no problem dropping the "right" label in my condemnations.
20/01/2011 10:39:34 PM
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Why not just blame Giffords?
17/01/2011 06:07:14 PM
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Indeed, why not; Sarah Palin does.
18/01/2011 06:58:01 PM
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The left are the ones storing up hate with their pathetic slaner
18/01/2011 07:53:23 PM
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At least 95% of the blame is Loughners; he's a nut, but that doesn't exonerate the demagogues.
18/01/2011 11:24:11 PM
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0% belongs to political rhetoric from the right
19/01/2011 02:47:56 PM
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Uh huh; it's absurd to mention right wing rhetoric when left wing rhetoric is the OBVIOUS culprit
19/01/2011 02:59:41 PM
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No leftist rhetoric? You just called a bunch of people 'dangeorus lunatics'
19/01/2011 03:37:54 PM
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Rhetoric is one thing, but I didn't use violent imagery, did I?
20/01/2011 01:40:14 AM
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no but the democratic party used very similar images in the same state
20/01/2011 06:41:19 PM
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It's news to me, but I condemn all violent inflammatory imagery and rhetoric.
20/01/2011 07:13:18 PM
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it was the national democrats
20/01/2011 08:32:01 PM
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Then that's equally dangerous and reprehensible and more reason to loathe the DLC and DCCC.
20/01/2011 09:49:08 PM
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The right is not the ones claiming rhetoric is the issue
19/01/2011 03:58:39 PM
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"WE aren't doing it, except for when we are". Admission of guilt is a poor defense.
20/01/2011 03:25:16 AM
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The irony of this thread is not lost on me.
19/01/2011 04:09:01 PM
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Bizarre thread for that Soapbox
19/01/2011 05:17:58 PM
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You missed the point, obviously.
19/01/2011 06:04:23 PM
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That I knew it would go this way is why I avoided looking closely for so long.
19/01/2011 11:20:44 PM
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Re: OK, I'm Officially Sick of the "Blood Libel" BS.
22/01/2011 05:49:44 PM
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We can debate whether it's coincidental, but the connections are documented fact
22/01/2011 08:17:24 PM
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