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You can use anything to prove what you want if you are willing to spin it hard enough random thoughts Send a noteboard - 14/01/2011 02:57:29 PM
Here is a study that shows significantly different spatial skills already appearing in infants. It doesn’t offer an explanation for why there is a difference but offers evidence that is hard to argue with short expanding the sampling size to rule out errors.

We shouldn't ignore evidence just because we don't like the implications. We also shouldn’t over read it, I wouldn’t discourage my daughter from being an engineer.


Which is a shame, 'cos I'd like to see the study, but it's also easily fixed. Expanding samples to reduce error is always a good idea, which is one of the benefits of multiple studies, but beyond a certain point you get marginal returns. *resists the urge to discuss FL exit polling in 2000 and 2004*

1) We have a study that indicates infant boys, as a whole, tend to have better spatial reasoning than infant girls, while noting that doesn't preclude individual girls performing as well, just that it's more common in boys,


We have a study that shows infant to do considerably better then infant girls at spatial reasoning. Nobody is claiming that girls can't do just that boys on average do it better. The study supports the argument that the average boy will do better then the average girl but that some girls will do better then the average boy. Which is what I have been saying all along.

2) Overall, math achievement is roughly equal, because spatial reasoning is just one aspect of math ability,


Sorry but as I mentioned before blanket statement do not qualify as arguments. Do you have any reasoning to back up that claim? Now girls do as well in the early math classes as boys higher math requires spatial reasoning so no they are not equal.

3) "If girls think they don’t do well in a subject, they have a diminished interest in it". I'd say that applies to all students; people who expect to fail usually find a way to make it happen, regardless of their sex, and probably the number of boys who suck at cooking is similar to the number of girls who suck at math because of social sexual norms, but most importantly,


That is just an argument to ignore reality because we don't like it. Do you have a study that shows boys under perform girls in some critical cooking skill? Do you have some study that shows men under perform women in the highest levels of cooking?

The study was done with infants to remove the argument that social norms were playing a factor.

4) None of the preconditioning involved in that, either biological or social, is set in stone, and at the end of the day the success of any one child in any one area will have more to do with individual ability as well as the ability of educators and parents to stimulate interest and encourage performance than it has to do with either the subject or the students sex.


that is statement of faith not science. No matter how badly a girls wants to be a NFL football player she never will and not because the boys want let her but because she just won't be good enough. She will be to small, to weak and to slow.

Natural ability does matter. all of the education in the world will make a long term impact on IQ test results. It is possible that we can develop early learning education that will improve spatial skills but unless it only helps females it will simply raise the bar.

There appears to be a sex advantage IN ONE AREA, overall achievement is roughly equal, at least to a point, but girls tend to have less interest in math because they're expected to perform more poorly; nevertheless, most developmentally normal children can succeed in any field if what native ability they have is stimulated and encouraged. Perhaps that's the biggest factor in what IS "developmentally normal".


It is critical area. You say there is equal achievement to point but you are ignoring that it is the point where things get hard and where math really starts to matter. Saying you do well at math except for geometry and calculus means you are not good at higher math. Not being good at higher math means you will have a hell of time do most hard science.

Thanks for the link, it was quite interesting.

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Looks like the feminist movement wasn't as successful as it appears - 11/01/2011 06:21:01 PM 2057 Views
I think you're extrapolating a bit too much - 11/01/2011 06:45:38 PM 1139 Views
I don't trust the figures. - 11/01/2011 06:50:24 PM 1143 Views
While I don't 100% agree with the article, some feminists annoy me no end. - 11/01/2011 06:47:03 PM 1159 Views
My wife told me just this weekend I need to stop pressuring her to have a career - 11/01/2011 06:52:11 PM 1148 Views
Re: My wife told me just this weekend I need to stop pressuring her to have a career - 12/01/2011 01:36:14 AM 1145 Views
Yeah, got one like that, too. - 12/01/2011 02:17:17 AM 1135 Views
yeah prett much anything gross that isn't in a diaper is my job - 12/01/2011 05:12:11 AM 1079 Views
It's not just that choice though. - 11/01/2011 07:12:48 PM 1197 Views
It feels more hypocritical coming from feminists than "traditionalists". *NM* - 11/01/2011 07:17:24 PM 619 Views
For you maybe. - 11/01/2011 07:27:52 PM 1135 Views
there is definitely some SAHM snobbery - 11/01/2011 08:43:21 PM 1099 Views
Well. - 11/01/2011 09:34:42 PM 1172 Views
I agree. I would also like to add, if I may... - 12/01/2011 01:27:59 AM 1138 Views
all 25 of them? - 12/01/2011 05:14:56 AM 1080 Views
Pffft, look it up a bit. You might find info on the national propaganda radio (NPR) site. - 12/01/2011 12:47:33 PM 1106 Views
It's a difficult dynamic even under the best of circumstances, when both partners have chosen it. - 12/01/2011 02:25:20 PM 986 Views
I agree, it's very difficult. - 12/01/2011 03:14:59 PM 1032 Views
it is nuanced - 12/01/2011 03:06:39 PM 1054 Views
Re: it is nuanced - 12/01/2011 04:58:36 PM 1079 Views
You are spot on. As usual. About everything. *NM* - 12/01/2011 01:42:18 AM 658 Views
- 12/01/2011 02:25:59 PM 1049 Views
I have to admit that this bothers me. - 11/01/2011 07:33:09 PM 1147 Views
I don't expect people to understand my choice necessarily. - 11/01/2011 09:36:52 PM 1161 Views
In addition... - 12/01/2011 05:39:25 PM 1044 Views
I guess you think the same of me then. - 11/01/2011 09:48:31 PM 1029 Views
Another one? - 12/01/2011 06:01:43 AM 1056 Views
Re: Another one? - 12/01/2011 12:33:58 PM 1090 Views
~never mind~ *NM* *NM* - 12/01/2011 04:42:47 PM 713 Views
I'm going to answer you anyway. - 12/01/2011 04:54:18 PM 1157 Views
not to mention - 12/01/2011 05:11:42 PM 1094 Views
In addition - 12/01/2011 05:23:25 PM 1032 Views
you don't want kids? - 12/01/2011 05:46:25 PM 1046 Views
bleck - 12/01/2011 11:14:25 PM 1046 Views
again not the vibe I get from you - 12/01/2011 11:38:26 PM 1033 Views
Hehe. - 13/01/2011 12:15:06 AM 1083 Views
Not selfish. - 13/01/2011 02:45:43 AM 1045 Views
You don't have to be a doctor to contribute to the world - 12/01/2011 05:27:26 PM 1106 Views
Poor Aeryn - 12/01/2011 05:29:47 PM 1031 Views
I replied before she edited - 12/01/2011 05:41:53 PM 984 Views
Am I at least absolved from having to respond? - 15/01/2011 06:11:27 AM 1072 Views
Certainly. *NM* - 15/01/2011 09:40:09 AM 657 Views
The primary issue... - 12/01/2011 05:52:42 PM 1010 Views
*NM* - 12/01/2011 05:54:29 PM 588 Views
What Rebekah said... - 15/01/2011 07:55:34 PM 1018 Views
Me too! - 11/01/2011 09:43:57 PM 1105 Views
Re: Me too! - 12/01/2011 01:23:39 AM 1099 Views
I have a fiancee like that. - 12/01/2011 02:14:53 AM 1048 Views
I feel so fortunate to be a stay at home mom. - 12/01/2011 11:32:37 PM 1011 Views
My commentary on the whys and wherefores of this stuff would be way too politically incorrect - 11/01/2011 07:56:24 PM 1146 Views
I think all of that makes sense - 11/01/2011 08:36:39 PM 1073 Views
In this particular case I don't disagree with you. - 11/01/2011 09:28:13 PM 993 Views
I'm not sure why either sex should surpass the other in math. - 12/01/2011 02:34:09 AM 983 Views
men have more physical strength period - 12/01/2011 05:30:14 AM 1004 Views
There's a lot more to running (especially marathons) then leg strength. - 12/01/2011 05:41:11 AM 990 Views
When you talk about reasons men "should" be better at math - 12/01/2011 03:47:53 PM 1051 Views
Re: When you talk about reasons men "should" be better at math - 12/01/2011 04:32:38 PM 966 Views
Re: When you talk about reasons men "should" be better at math - 12/01/2011 04:41:42 PM 1042 Views
Both, really; the latter is a consequence of the former. - 12/01/2011 05:21:28 PM 940 Views
I'm trying to understand your position - 12/01/2011 05:28:43 PM 998 Views
try string theory, it makes more sense than Joel logic - 12/01/2011 05:57:27 PM 958 Views
Now you've got it. - 12/01/2011 06:40:50 PM 1100 Views
Okay, that's fair. *NM* - 12/01/2011 06:42:30 PM 569 Views
Glad we were able to reach an understanding. - 13/01/2011 10:02:47 PM 991 Views
Re: I'm trying to understand your position - 13/01/2011 08:12:05 PM 1030 Views
we know the brain of women works differently then the brains of men - 12/01/2011 05:40:15 PM 1039 Views
What evidence I'm aware of seems inconclusive. - 12/01/2011 06:46:50 PM 919 Views
here is some evdience to argue that it is not society but biology - 13/01/2011 08:43:43 PM 1036 Views
I think you did like I always do and forgot to give us a way to click your link. - 13/01/2011 09:56:52 PM 1036 Views
oops - 13/01/2011 10:07:55 PM 1079 Views
Seems like that's an argument for both views, in a way. - 13/01/2011 11:14:11 PM 957 Views
You can use anything to prove what you want if you are willing to spin it hard enough - 14/01/2011 02:57:29 PM 1187 Views
I used YOUR article to "prove" what it says outright. - 15/01/2011 05:35:27 PM 1147 Views
I would also like to say this: - 11/01/2011 09:33:23 PM 1021 Views
Of course - 12/01/2011 01:47:14 AM 1056 Views
Re: Of course - 12/01/2011 04:57:11 PM 1045 Views
"Night" is also almost invariably feminine, in my experience. - 12/01/2011 07:58:12 PM 1071 Views
Re: "Night" is also almost invariably feminine, in my experience. - 12/01/2011 08:15:59 PM 1046 Views
It's true for Arabic and hence, one suspects, Hebrew. - 13/01/2011 07:43:21 PM 975 Views
I'm glad YOU think it's fun... - 13/01/2011 10:05:07 PM 1020 Views
Re: I would also like to say this: - 12/01/2011 09:15:28 AM 1030 Views
Re: I would also like to say this: - 12/01/2011 12:27:14 PM 1051 Views
No - 12/01/2011 12:28:48 PM 962 Views
Re: No - 12/01/2011 12:35:56 PM 927 Views
Re: No - 12/01/2011 12:37:33 PM 1028 Views
Re: No - 12/01/2011 12:43:36 PM 1021 Views
Re: No - 12/01/2011 12:47:56 PM 1051 Views
Since this has become too complicated - 12/01/2011 12:54:54 PM 1058 Views
Re: Since this has become too complicated - 12/01/2011 12:56:20 PM 1052 Views
Re: Since this has become too complicated - 12/01/2011 04:55:50 PM 995 Views
The two are used as different psychological concepts. - 12/01/2011 02:24:58 PM 1014 Views
Again, used incorrectly. - 12/01/2011 03:34:22 PM 994 Views
Re: Again, used incorrectly. - 12/01/2011 04:00:59 PM 1066 Views
Exactly. *NM* - 12/01/2011 04:53:03 PM 583 Views
It really doesn't surprise me - 12/01/2011 12:36:19 AM 1028 Views
Have you left a memo at the Feminist Movement's Office? - 12/01/2011 12:46:45 AM 1055 Views
Actually, the feminist movement was completely successful. - 12/01/2011 01:42:44 AM 1061 Views
Well put. *NM* - 12/01/2011 02:10:56 AM 572 Views
I was playing a bit but I agree that the feminist in the past accomplished a lot - 12/01/2011 05:34:04 AM 1070 Views
NOW is just a left-leaning PAC. - 12/01/2011 03:16:52 PM 1020 Views
Now if only others were so rational about it. - 17/01/2011 05:55:57 AM 2036 Views
Nevermind, Tom beat me to it. - 12/01/2011 01:54:07 AM 993 Views
Mmm. I don't think you understand the feminist movement. You have been reading to many things - 12/01/2011 01:56:20 AM 1058 Views
I was refering to groups like NOW - 12/01/2011 05:40:46 AM 995 Views
Gotcha. - 12/01/2011 11:53:29 PM 996 Views
I was being a tad bit trollish with my title - 13/01/2011 01:47:30 AM 956 Views
I'm not sure that follows, at all. - 12/01/2011 02:06:41 AM 963 Views
they never mention their study methods - 12/01/2011 02:14:15 PM 1055 Views
Gosh, look what you started. - 12/01/2011 03:00:23 PM 1048 Views
somebody need to start something it is pretty dead around here *NM* - 12/01/2011 03:16:54 PM 595 Views
Seriously *NM* - 12/01/2011 09:56:56 PM 565 Views
I agree that it would be awesome to hang with my kid every day and not have to work. - 12/01/2011 11:33:25 PM 1054 Views
that part would be great - 12/01/2011 11:40:49 PM 1014 Views
I could do it every day. - 13/01/2011 12:52:56 AM 937 Views
Me too... - 13/01/2011 02:45:49 PM 1066 Views
So here's the question. Why don't men have a "choice" to opt-out? - 15/01/2011 06:13:28 AM 1046 Views
They do. - 15/01/2011 09:42:29 AM 993 Views
read further up the thread - 15/01/2011 10:49:08 AM 1068 Views
I really wish that were more socially acceptable. - 15/01/2011 07:58:57 PM 1080 Views
I feel I have that choice. - 16/01/2011 12:08:48 AM 1006 Views
They most certainly do. - 18/01/2011 04:39:09 PM 1113 Views
This sounds awful to me. - 13/01/2011 04:27:08 AM 1023 Views
Re: This sounds awful to me. - 14/01/2011 02:47:36 AM 1043 Views
Yikes. - 14/01/2011 11:13:39 PM 1022 Views

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