And those familiar with our past and current debates will know how rarely I say that.
That we agree here argues for more caution than you're displaying.
That AZ has capital punishment drives it home, as it did following the Boston Massacre. Adams won the acquittal of all but two of his clients (who escaped death via the archaic and since abolished "clergy benefit" ) in a trial that is said to have recorded the first instance of the phrase "reasonable doubt".
Law is not a game, though some treat it as such; criminal law is very serious and that involving death, as either charge or sentence, quite literally as somber as the grave. The Bill of Rights entitles all accused to the best possible defence; so does common sense and self preservation, because the simple fact is that mistakes happen: Any of us could find ourselves falsely accused and wrongfully imprisoned tomorrow. Should such a state befall you, you will be very grateful for just the kind of defence attorney you so disparage here (for the record I have no more respect than you for lawyers who accept large retainers to await inevitable frequent charges against clients they know to be guilty, but it happens far more often in the corporate than the mafia world; whose "trial lawyers" do you condemn then...?
)
Without a sincere and robust defence, even of the guilty, especially for capital crimes, the entire justice system is a facade. Not only must the innocent face the real risk of wrongful conviction, but, as Adams notes, the guilty have no deterrent, for they are as likely to be convicted for legal as illegal conduct. Most people like to treat that as mere rhetoric, yet it's increasingly treated as a truism in inner city areas: Law enforcement, lawyers, judges and juries assume everyone there is a criminal, and they will inevitably be arrested and convicted as one even if innocent. Why not strike out against a system oppressing them, commit the very acts of which they are "presumed guilty" and benefit from that as best they can for as long as they can until the arrest and conviction that was inevitable from birth finds them? The end result is the same whether or not they obey the law, but the interim gains are quite different. There, in a real palpable form, is your end to security. It applies to the Kandahar goatherder who finds himself in Gitmo for reasons never explained and the Bellaire, TX youth paralyzed by a police bullet in his own drive while his parents watch simply for being a suspicious color and quite possibly to you if you successfully argue for presumption of guilt. There's a reason why we enshrined presumption of INNOCENCE in the Constitution; if you don't like it you're welcome to try passing an amendment reversing it, but I, and I think the majority of Americans, will oppose you.

I am for the prisoners at the bar, and shall apologize for it only in the words of the Marquis Beccaria: ‘If I can but be the instrument of preserving one life, his blessings and tears of transport, shall be a sufficient consolation to me, for the contempt of all mankind....
We find in the rules laid down by the greatest English judges, who have been the brightest of mankind, [that] we are to look upon it as more beneficial that many guilty persons should escape unpunished than one innocent person should suffer. The reason is because it is of more importance to [the] community that innocence should be protected than it is that guilt should be punished, for guilt and crimes are so frequent in the world that all of them cannot be punished, and many times they happen in such a manner that it is not of much consequence to the public whether they are punished or not. But when innocence itself is brought to the bar and condemned, especially to die, the subject will exclaim, "It is immaterial to me whether I behave well or ill, for virtue itself is no security. " And if such a sentiment as this should take place in the mind of the subject there would be an end to all security whatsoever.
--John Adams, in defense of British soldiers accused of murders at the Boston Massacre.
We find in the rules laid down by the greatest English judges, who have been the brightest of mankind, [that] we are to look upon it as more beneficial that many guilty persons should escape unpunished than one innocent person should suffer. The reason is because it is of more importance to [the] community that innocence should be protected than it is that guilt should be punished, for guilt and crimes are so frequent in the world that all of them cannot be punished, and many times they happen in such a manner that it is not of much consequence to the public whether they are punished or not. But when innocence itself is brought to the bar and condemned, especially to die, the subject will exclaim, "It is immaterial to me whether I behave well or ill, for virtue itself is no security. " And if such a sentiment as this should take place in the mind of the subject there would be an end to all security whatsoever.
--John Adams, in defense of British soldiers accused of murders at the Boston Massacre.
That AZ has capital punishment drives it home, as it did following the Boston Massacre. Adams won the acquittal of all but two of his clients (who escaped death via the archaic and since abolished "clergy benefit" ) in a trial that is said to have recorded the first instance of the phrase "reasonable doubt".
Law is not a game, though some treat it as such; criminal law is very serious and that involving death, as either charge or sentence, quite literally as somber as the grave. The Bill of Rights entitles all accused to the best possible defence; so does common sense and self preservation, because the simple fact is that mistakes happen: Any of us could find ourselves falsely accused and wrongfully imprisoned tomorrow. Should such a state befall you, you will be very grateful for just the kind of defence attorney you so disparage here (for the record I have no more respect than you for lawyers who accept large retainers to await inevitable frequent charges against clients they know to be guilty, but it happens far more often in the corporate than the mafia world; whose "trial lawyers" do you condemn then...?

Without a sincere and robust defence, even of the guilty, especially for capital crimes, the entire justice system is a facade. Not only must the innocent face the real risk of wrongful conviction, but, as Adams notes, the guilty have no deterrent, for they are as likely to be convicted for legal as illegal conduct. Most people like to treat that as mere rhetoric, yet it's increasingly treated as a truism in inner city areas: Law enforcement, lawyers, judges and juries assume everyone there is a criminal, and they will inevitably be arrested and convicted as one even if innocent. Why not strike out against a system oppressing them, commit the very acts of which they are "presumed guilty" and benefit from that as best they can for as long as they can until the arrest and conviction that was inevitable from birth finds them? The end result is the same whether or not they obey the law, but the interim gains are quite different. There, in a real palpable form, is your end to security. It applies to the Kandahar goatherder who finds himself in Gitmo for reasons never explained and the Bellaire, TX youth paralyzed by a police bullet in his own drive while his parents watch simply for being a suspicious color and quite possibly to you if you successfully argue for presumption of guilt. There's a reason why we enshrined presumption of INNOCENCE in the Constitution; if you don't like it you're welcome to try passing an amendment reversing it, but I, and I think the majority of Americans, will oppose you.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!

LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
This message last edited by Joel on 14/01/2011 at 02:43:05 AM
What motivates someone to pull out all the stops defending the Arizona shooter in court?
13/01/2011 06:46:14 PM
- 1671 Views
Because even the guilty are entitled to a full and proper defence.
13/01/2011 06:58:51 PM
- 1095 Views
A belief in everyone's right to a defense? *NM*
13/01/2011 07:02:24 PM
- 566 Views
Isn't it a little strange...
13/01/2011 07:08:49 PM
- 1197 Views
I don't know anything about the woman or the people she has defended before
13/01/2011 07:10:56 PM
- 1063 Views
Timothy Mcveigh, Eric Rudolph, Theodore Kazynski, Zacharias Moussai, Susan Smith...
13/01/2011 07:16:07 PM
- 1230 Views
All of these strike me as people who might not get a fair hearing.
13/01/2011 07:18:24 PM
- 1140 Views
Re: All of these strike me as people who might not get a fair hearing.
13/01/2011 07:23:15 PM
- 1013 Views
So once you sit down and have a heart to heart with your client an discover that he is simply evil..
13/01/2011 07:30:53 PM
- 1233 Views
My god, man, take an ethics class.
13/01/2011 07:37:16 PM
- 1061 Views
So by your ethics...
13/01/2011 07:40:36 PM
- 1213 Views
If he can't be defended he can't be tried and thus he can't be convicted.
13/01/2011 07:44:57 PM
- 1244 Views
I suspect he disparages "technicalities" as well. *NM*
13/01/2011 07:48:14 PM
- 519 Views
Maybe he IS insane
13/01/2011 07:17:46 PM
- 1119 Views
So what if he is?
14/01/2011 01:11:44 AM
- 978 Views
Capital punishment is more expensive than life in prison.
13/01/2011 07:34:29 PM
- 1193 Views
So in other words out of self interest I should admire her? Now THAT's evil...
13/01/2011 07:38:36 PM
- 1263 Views
13/01/2011 07:40:42 PM
- 1025 Views

Re:
13/01/2011 07:49:56 PM
- 1164 Views

Do you know what happened before there were defence lawyers for all accused? *NM*
13/01/2011 10:37:55 PM
- 561 Views
Do you believe the severity of the crime should affect your defense?
13/01/2011 07:45:16 PM
- 1051 Views
No.
13/01/2011 08:44:05 PM
- 1306 Views
Have you any way to back up this statement?
13/01/2011 08:49:41 PM
- 1084 Views
re:
13/01/2011 09:09:05 PM
- 1072 Views
I just get a sense that those principles are worshipped more than the cause they supposedly serve...
13/01/2011 09:19:59 PM
- 1082 Views
Take a look at the part of the world who still use the villiage elder system
13/01/2011 09:36:18 PM
- 956 Views
That is one effed up world that I would not want to live in. *NM*
14/01/2011 01:42:34 AM
- 532 Views
random thoughts is right.
14/01/2011 02:42:38 AM
- 1344 Views
the belief that for the system to work everyone needs vigorous defense
13/01/2011 07:37:40 PM
- 1063 Views
A belief in justice
13/01/2011 08:24:25 PM
- 1194 Views
Personally, I don't see why being insane should excuse anything...
13/01/2011 08:29:25 PM
- 1220 Views
He should have been shot in the street like a dog.
14/01/2011 01:09:38 AM
- 1016 Views
Vengeance is not justice. *NM*
14/01/2011 01:13:04 AM
- 521 Views
If the person is guilty, it's one in the same.
14/01/2011 01:17:54 AM
- 979 Views
No, it's not: their definitions and concepts are entirely different.
14/01/2011 02:27:13 PM
- 1096 Views
Can`t consume blood, actually.
14/01/2011 04:10:57 PM
- 1066 Views
That would not be a deterrent to people who are mentally ill. *NM*
14/01/2011 01:25:56 AM
- 559 Views
By that logic nothing would.
14/01/2011 01:29:41 AM
- 966 Views
And by that logic, we should kill people with HIV.
14/01/2011 06:20:03 AM
- 1056 Views
Not at all. We should kill people with HIV if they're spreading it knowingly.
14/01/2011 01:31:48 PM
- 1267 Views
then we should kill people who spread the flu as well
14/01/2011 04:53:51 PM
- 1104 Views
That's absurd.
14/01/2011 08:21:36 PM
- 991 Views
it is absurd and that is my point
14/01/2011 08:54:07 PM
- 1124 Views
That's not the issue.
14/01/2011 09:40:00 PM
- 1056 Views
why are the different?
14/01/2011 10:02:06 PM
- 1045 Views
HIV is incurable.
15/01/2011 07:09:47 AM
- 972 Views
Unless, you know, someone is deliberately spreading flu to old people or people with
15/01/2011 12:32:42 PM
- 1044 Views
you are correct that is why we need to fix our mental health system *NM*
14/01/2011 02:22:22 PM
- 553 Views
Not everyone else is doing that. So who else are you trying to deter?
14/01/2011 05:25:28 PM
- 1160 Views
Everyone.
14/01/2011 08:23:41 PM
- 1274 Views
gang members get killed every day by other gang members so I would say it isn't working *NM*
14/01/2011 08:31:29 PM
- 585 Views
If we were executing them publicly in the streets, maybe it would be. *NM*
14/01/2011 08:33:30 PM
- 551 Views
why would you believe that?
14/01/2011 08:58:25 PM
- 1061 Views
It's never been tried.
14/01/2011 09:40:54 PM
- 1052 Views
did you actually read my reply where I explained that it has been tried?
14/01/2011 09:52:43 PM
- 1140 Views
Yes, let's bring back the justice of the lynch mob.
*NM*
14/01/2011 01:44:00 AM
- 490 Views

It is justice if the person is guilty.
14/01/2011 01:32:44 PM
- 977 Views
So how would you determine if the person is guilty and deserved death? Perhaps... with a lawyer? *NM*
15/01/2011 06:05:13 AM
- 572 Views
No, a 5 minute trial wherein the judge watches the video of this guy killing everyone...
15/01/2011 07:05:30 AM
- 1120 Views
Because he has absolutely no right to the laws dictated in the U.S. Constitution.
14/01/2011 03:20:58 AM
- 1207 Views
The Constitution shouldn't protect these people.
14/01/2011 01:34:19 PM
- 988 Views
14th amendment -- equal protection clause. thanks for playing!
14/01/2011 04:22:17 PM
- 1080 Views
I'm not an American.
14/01/2011 08:27:52 PM
- 1177 Views
And believe me, that shows in more than where you were born. *NM*
14/01/2011 11:28:28 PM
- 524 Views
How do you determine if someone gets Constitutional protection or not?
14/01/2011 08:10:45 PM
- 1058 Views
If someone is guilty beyond the shadow of a doubt...
14/01/2011 08:26:36 PM
- 1036 Views
He has a reasonable defense.
14/01/2011 11:21:47 PM
- 1191 Views
I disagree.
15/01/2011 07:04:38 AM
- 1174 Views
That's preposterous.
15/01/2011 10:42:04 PM
- 1032 Views
He's not retarded, he's insane.
16/01/2011 12:28:45 AM
- 1019 Views
Both are maladies that affect the mind and reasoning processes.
16/01/2011 02:05:53 AM
- 1070 Views
Then insane still have to pay for what they've done.
16/01/2011 02:53:47 AM
- 1020 Views
There's a little flaw in your connection.
16/01/2011 03:14:36 AM
- 1018 Views
Again, I disagree.
16/01/2011 04:47:08 AM
- 1584 Views
Just because that's your opinion, doesn't mean that's applicable.
17/01/2011 03:07:47 AM
- 1117 Views
yes because threat of death works so well on the insane
14/01/2011 02:21:42 PM
- 1068 Views
I`ve addressed this already.
14/01/2011 04:08:28 PM
- 988 Views
no you admitted it wouldn't deter them
14/01/2011 05:03:24 PM
- 1050 Views
Re: no you admitted it wouldn't deter them
14/01/2011 06:55:22 PM
- 1228 Views
no
14/01/2011 07:15:11 PM
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Re: no
14/01/2011 07:35:07 PM
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We recently put a man to death in Texas who was very likely innocent
14/01/2011 09:24:04 PM
- 933 Views
Just as an aside... I suppose you have no problem with Muslims cutting off the hand of a thief?
14/01/2011 05:30:50 PM
- 1114 Views
I invite you to show me where I've criticized the Islamic legal system.
14/01/2011 08:36:22 PM
- 1100 Views
OK.
15/01/2011 04:40:56 PM
- 1096 Views
I really don't care what Muslims do to each other.
15/01/2011 05:28:52 PM
- 1003 Views
I find it hilarious that a clearly guilty man will be defended. Defended against what?
14/01/2011 03:22:20 AM
- 1179 Views
Because the thought of people with a lynch mob mentality running the show scares them way more than
15/01/2011 03:56:44 AM
- 1035 Views