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Both, really; the latter is a consequence of the former. Joel Send a noteboard - 12/01/2011 05:21:28 PM
as for the men a re sprinters and women are long distance runners men dominate women by very large margins in both fields. The best female runner at marathons come muck closer then they do to the best male sprinters (would pure strength dominates) but men still win all of the major marathons. Men are simply more athletic then women are. I know there plenty of experts who spend considerable time effort blowing smoke up each others asses trying to prove that isn't true but that doesn't really change things. It possible that if the push long distance running far enough it boil down to will power and fat reserves and females might gain parity but that is simply finding an exception to the rule.

Not PC I know but reality isn't PC.

PC is neither here nor there to physiology, but this business of "everyone who's devoted thier professional career and decades of analytical research to the subject but still disagrees with my off the cuff uninformed opinion is a PC idiot" is getting kinda old. All else being equal, I'll bet on the person who has to go through labor when it comes to lower body strength, just as I'll expect the person who has to nurse to have larger breasts, and I'm pretty sure there's nothing PC about that. ;)

I still can't see any reason men should be better at math, on average; I'm open to supporting arguments (and, no, standardized tests by the same people who've been telling the women since birth that they suck at math don't count) but you'll have to present them.


Do you mean from an evolutionary standpoint? Or do you mean you don't understand how any of the known biological/chemical differences in the brains of men and women (assuming nature can be totally separated from nurture) can explain why men would on average be better at math than women?

It makes intuitive sense to me that the presence/degree of different hormone balances impacts how pathways form and what types of thinking those pathways enable or strengthen, and I do believe that the statement "men will on average be better at math than women" would be true even if you could somehow conduct a scientific experiment in which you raised boys and girls from birth in entirely the same environment to remove any nurture component. I also think that our cultural forces exacerbate those differences, though, so I don't think I'm entirely disagreeing with you. Other than the fact that I am willing to buy it and you aren't ;)

I'm not unwilling to buy it, I'm just not willing to take it on faith from someone contending from the start that sexual inequality exists in areas that seemingly have nothing to do with sex.
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Looks like the feminist movement wasn't as successful as it appears random thoughts - 11/01/2011 06:21:01 PM 2057 Views
I think you're extrapolating a bit too much beetnemesis - 11/01/2011 06:45:38 PM 1139 Views
The aricle does mention that women feel pressured to work when they did not want to random thoughts - 11/01/2011 06:48:47 PM 1123 Views
I don't trust the figures. Rebekah - 11/01/2011 06:50:24 PM 1143 Views
One assumes the latter, to the extent that "same job with same experience" can be defined. *NM* Legolas - 12/01/2011 07:10:13 PM 586 Views
One might assume that, but it's not necessarily so. Rebekah - 12/01/2011 08:58:14 PM 1098 Views
While I don't 100% agree with the article, some feminists annoy me no end. Rebekah - 11/01/2011 06:47:03 PM 1158 Views
My wife told me just this weekend I need to stop pressuring her to have a career random thoughts - 11/01/2011 06:52:11 PM 1148 Views
Re: My wife told me just this weekend I need to stop pressuring her to have a career Rebekah - 11/01/2011 09:35:43 PM 1131 Views
Re: My wife told me just this weekend I need to stop pressuring her to have a career Avendesora - 12/01/2011 01:36:14 AM 1145 Views
Yeah, got one like that, too. Joel - 12/01/2011 02:17:17 AM 1134 Views
yeah prett much anything gross that isn't in a diaper is my job random thoughts - 12/01/2011 05:12:11 AM 1078 Views
It's not just that choice though. Sareitha Sedai - 11/01/2011 07:12:48 PM 1196 Views
It feels more hypocritical coming from feminists than "traditionalists". *NM* Rebekah - 11/01/2011 07:17:24 PM 619 Views
For you maybe. Sareitha Sedai - 11/01/2011 07:27:52 PM 1135 Views
there is definitely some SAHM snobbery random thoughts - 11/01/2011 08:43:21 PM 1098 Views
Well. Rebekah - 11/01/2011 09:34:42 PM 1170 Views
I agree. I would also like to add, if I may... Avendesora - 12/01/2011 01:27:59 AM 1137 Views
all 25 of them? random thoughts - 12/01/2011 05:14:56 AM 1080 Views
Pffft, look it up a bit. You might find info on the national propaganda radio (NPR) site. Avendesora - 12/01/2011 12:47:33 PM 1104 Views
It's a difficult dynamic even under the best of circumstances, when both partners have chosen it. Sareitha Sedai - 12/01/2011 02:25:20 PM 985 Views
I agree, it's very difficult. Avendesora - 12/01/2011 03:14:59 PM 1031 Views
it is nuanced random thoughts - 12/01/2011 03:06:39 PM 1054 Views
Re: it is nuanced Avendesora - 12/01/2011 04:58:36 PM 1077 Views
You are spot on. As usual. About everything. *NM* Tashmere - 12/01/2011 01:42:18 AM 658 Views
Sareitha Sedai - 12/01/2011 02:25:59 PM 1047 Views
I have to admit that this bothers me. rebelaessedai - 11/01/2011 07:33:09 PM 1147 Views
I don't expect people to understand my choice necessarily. Rebekah - 11/01/2011 09:36:52 PM 1161 Views
In addition... Jacob - 12/01/2011 05:39:25 PM 1043 Views
I guess you think the same of me then. Clover - 11/01/2011 09:48:31 PM 1027 Views
Another one? rebelaessedai - 12/01/2011 06:01:43 AM 1056 Views
Re: Another one? Rebekah - 12/01/2011 12:33:58 PM 1090 Views
~never mind~ *NM* *NM* Aeryn - 12/01/2011 04:42:47 PM 713 Views
I'm going to answer you anyway. Rebekah - 12/01/2011 04:54:18 PM 1156 Views
not to mention nossy - 12/01/2011 05:11:42 PM 1093 Views
In addition Sareitha Sedai - 12/01/2011 05:23:25 PM 1032 Views
you don't want kids? random thoughts - 12/01/2011 05:46:25 PM 1046 Views
bleck nossy - 12/01/2011 11:14:25 PM 1044 Views
again not the vibe I get from you random thoughts - 12/01/2011 11:38:26 PM 1031 Views
Hehe. Clover - 13/01/2011 12:15:06 AM 1081 Views
Not selfish. Tashmere - 13/01/2011 02:45:43 AM 1045 Views
You don't have to be a doctor to contribute to the world random thoughts - 12/01/2011 05:27:26 PM 1104 Views
Poor Aeryn Sareitha Sedai - 12/01/2011 05:29:47 PM 1031 Views
I replied before she edited random thoughts - 12/01/2011 05:41:53 PM 984 Views
Am I at least absolved from having to respond? Aeryn - 15/01/2011 06:11:27 AM 1071 Views
Certainly. *NM* Rebekah - 15/01/2011 09:40:09 AM 657 Views
The primary issue... Jacob - 12/01/2011 05:52:42 PM 1008 Views
*NM* Sareitha Sedai - 12/01/2011 05:54:29 PM 588 Views
Agreed; ironically, that first line applies to this thread and mine with the parenting article. Joel - 13/01/2011 10:00:28 PM 1164 Views
What Rebekah said... Clover - 15/01/2011 07:55:34 PM 1018 Views
Me too! Clover - 11/01/2011 09:43:57 PM 1104 Views
Re: Me too! Darth_Katie - 12/01/2011 01:23:39 AM 1098 Views
It has been a long, long time since I have seen a woman getting looked down on for staying at home. Tashmere - 12/01/2011 01:48:42 AM 978 Views
I have a fiancee like that. Joel - 12/01/2011 02:14:53 AM 1048 Views
I feel so fortunate to be a stay at home mom. Beqi - 12/01/2011 11:32:37 PM 1010 Views
My commentary on the whys and wherefores of this stuff would be way too politically incorrect SilverWarder - 11/01/2011 07:56:24 PM 1146 Views
I think all of that makes sense random thoughts - 11/01/2011 08:36:39 PM 1072 Views
In this particular case I don't disagree with you. SilverWarder - 11/01/2011 09:28:13 PM 993 Views
I'm not sure why either sex should surpass the other in math. Joel - 12/01/2011 02:34:09 AM 982 Views
men have more physical strength period random thoughts - 12/01/2011 05:30:14 AM 1003 Views
There's a lot more to running (especially marathons) then leg strength. Joel - 12/01/2011 05:41:11 AM 989 Views
how much time the experts spend being wrong doesn't make them less wrong random thoughts - 12/01/2011 03:16:10 PM 997 Views
How much more time they've spent studying it before drawing conclusions makes a big difference. Joel - 12/01/2011 05:42:26 PM 998 Views
your right it is just a coincidence that their results always matches their politics random thoughts - 12/01/2011 05:56:03 PM 1048 Views
There's definitely such a thing as a self fulfilling prophecy. Joel - 12/01/2011 07:00:23 PM 1008 Views
so you would trust them if they only admitted conseratives? random thoughts - 12/01/2011 09:51:00 PM 1032 Views
Admitted? No, but they'll take anyone with the grades. Joel - 13/01/2011 09:47:42 PM 1018 Views
Every study I have seen shows most schools have few to no non-leberal proffesors random thoughts - 13/01/2011 10:07:08 PM 960 Views
Every study I've ever seen shows that math and science fields have few to no women. Joel - 13/01/2011 10:42:46 PM 1077 Views
not when we know men are better at math thewpmen are random thoughts - 13/01/2011 11:10:18 PM 1104 Views
Sigh... we know no such thing, and even if we did, it would be those biased liberals telling us. Joel - 13/01/2011 11:30:33 PM 917 Views
When you talk about reasons men "should" be better at math Sareitha Sedai - 12/01/2011 03:47:53 PM 1051 Views
Re: When you talk about reasons men "should" be better at math Macharius - 12/01/2011 04:32:38 PM 966 Views
Re: When you talk about reasons men "should" be better at math Sareitha Sedai - 12/01/2011 04:41:42 PM 1042 Views
Both, really; the latter is a consequence of the former. Joel - 12/01/2011 05:21:28 PM 939 Views
I'm trying to understand your position Sareitha Sedai - 12/01/2011 05:28:43 PM 997 Views
try string theory, it makes more sense than Joel logic random thoughts - 12/01/2011 05:57:27 PM 957 Views
Now you've got it. Joel - 12/01/2011 06:40:50 PM 1100 Views
Okay, that's fair. *NM* Sareitha Sedai - 12/01/2011 06:42:30 PM 569 Views
Glad we were able to reach an understanding. Joel - 13/01/2011 10:02:47 PM 991 Views
Re: I'm trying to understand your position Camilla - 13/01/2011 08:12:05 PM 1030 Views
we know the brain of women works differently then the brains of men random thoughts - 12/01/2011 05:40:15 PM 1039 Views
What evidence I'm aware of seems inconclusive. Joel - 12/01/2011 06:46:50 PM 919 Views
There are theories but of course they are unprovable random thoughts - 12/01/2011 10:50:08 PM 1013 Views
That's a logical rationale, and might even be accurate, but in this case I want hard evidence. Joel - 13/01/2011 09:03:32 PM 926 Views
I think if you look you find you believe all sorts of things that can't be proven random thoughts - 13/01/2011 10:03:54 PM 986 Views
I have, and have frequently argued everyone holds such beliefs. Joel - 13/01/2011 10:33:01 PM 879 Views
here is some evdience to argue that it is not society but biology random thoughts - 13/01/2011 08:43:43 PM 1036 Views
I think you did like I always do and forgot to give us a way to click your link. Joel - 13/01/2011 09:56:52 PM 1036 Views
oops random thoughts - 13/01/2011 10:07:55 PM 1078 Views
Seems like that's an argument for both views, in a way. Joel - 13/01/2011 11:14:11 PM 956 Views
You can use anything to prove what you want if you are willing to spin it hard enough random thoughts - 14/01/2011 02:57:29 PM 1185 Views
I used YOUR article to "prove" what it says outright. Joel - 15/01/2011 05:35:27 PM 1145 Views
I would also like to say this: Rebekah - 11/01/2011 09:33:23 PM 1020 Views
Of course Tom - 12/01/2011 01:47:14 AM 1054 Views
Re: Of course Rebekah - 12/01/2011 04:57:11 PM 1045 Views
"Night" is also almost invariably feminine, in my experience. Legolas - 12/01/2011 07:58:12 PM 1070 Views
Re: "Night" is also almost invariably feminine, in my experience. Camilla - 12/01/2011 08:15:59 PM 1046 Views
It's true for Arabic and hence, one suspects, Hebrew. Legolas - 13/01/2011 07:43:21 PM 974 Views
I'm glad YOU think it's fun... Joel - 13/01/2011 10:05:07 PM 1020 Views
I seem to remember reading about genders in Norwegian once, but I forget now... Legolas - 13/01/2011 10:11:24 PM 1061 Views
I think you may be right, but I'll no more after next week. Joel - 14/01/2011 12:20:54 AM 1147 Views
Re: I would also like to say this: Camilla - 12/01/2011 09:15:28 AM 1030 Views
Re: I would also like to say this: Rebekah - 12/01/2011 12:27:14 PM 1051 Views
No Camilla - 12/01/2011 12:28:48 PM 960 Views
Re: No Rebekah - 12/01/2011 12:35:56 PM 926 Views
Re: No Camilla - 12/01/2011 12:37:33 PM 1027 Views
Re: No Rebekah - 12/01/2011 12:43:36 PM 1021 Views
Re: No Camilla - 12/01/2011 12:47:56 PM 1050 Views
Since this has become too complicated Rebekah - 12/01/2011 12:54:54 PM 1057 Views
Re: Since this has become too complicated Camilla - 12/01/2011 12:56:20 PM 1052 Views
Re: Since this has become too complicated Rebekah - 12/01/2011 04:55:50 PM 994 Views
The two are used as different psychological concepts. Darth_Katie - 12/01/2011 02:24:58 PM 1013 Views
Again, used incorrectly. Tom - 12/01/2011 03:34:22 PM 993 Views
Re: Again, used incorrectly. Camilla - 12/01/2011 04:00:59 PM 1066 Views
Exactly. *NM* Rebekah - 12/01/2011 04:53:03 PM 583 Views
It really doesn't surprise me Beqi - 12/01/2011 12:36:19 AM 1026 Views
Have you left a memo at the Feminist Movement's Office? Dannymac - 12/01/2011 12:46:45 AM 1054 Views
what the point? Like good liberals they only believe science that agrees with them *NM* random thoughts - 12/01/2011 05:31:09 AM 508 Views
Actually, the feminist movement was completely successful. Tom - 12/01/2011 01:42:44 AM 1061 Views
Well put. *NM* everynametaken - 12/01/2011 02:10:56 AM 572 Views
I was playing a bit but I agree that the feminist in the past accomplished a lot random thoughts - 12/01/2011 05:34:04 AM 1070 Views
NOW is just a left-leaning PAC. Tom - 12/01/2011 03:16:52 PM 1019 Views
I would argue the women's movement and the feminist movement are not the same thing random thoughts - 12/01/2011 03:53:19 PM 982 Views
Now if only others were so rational about it. SilverWarder - 17/01/2011 05:55:57 AM 2036 Views
Nevermind, Tom beat me to it. Avendesora - 12/01/2011 01:54:07 AM 993 Views
Mmm. I don't think you understand the feminist movement. You have been reading to many things Tashmere - 12/01/2011 01:56:20 AM 1058 Views
I was refering to groups like NOW random thoughts - 12/01/2011 05:40:46 AM 994 Views
Gotcha. Tashmere - 12/01/2011 11:53:29 PM 996 Views
I was being a tad bit trollish with my title random thoughts - 13/01/2011 01:47:30 AM 956 Views
I'm not sure that follows, at all. Joel - 12/01/2011 02:06:41 AM 962 Views
they never mention their study methods Ava - 12/01/2011 02:14:15 PM 1054 Views
Gosh, look what you started. nossy - 12/01/2011 03:00:23 PM 1048 Views
somebody need to start something it is pretty dead around here *NM* random thoughts - 12/01/2011 03:16:54 PM 595 Views
Seriously *NM* beetnemesis - 12/01/2011 09:56:56 PM 565 Views
I agree that it would be awesome to hang with my kid every day and not have to work. TaskmasterJack - 12/01/2011 11:33:25 PM 1054 Views
that part would be great random thoughts - 12/01/2011 11:40:49 PM 1012 Views
I could do it every day. TaskmasterJack - 13/01/2011 12:52:56 AM 937 Views
Me too... Jacob - 13/01/2011 02:45:49 PM 1066 Views
So here's the question. Why don't men have a "choice" to opt-out? Aeryn - 15/01/2011 06:13:28 AM 1046 Views
They do. Rebekah - 15/01/2011 09:42:29 AM 992 Views
read further up the thread random thoughts - 15/01/2011 10:49:08 AM 1067 Views
I really wish that were more socially acceptable. Clover - 15/01/2011 07:58:57 PM 1079 Views
I feel I have that choice. TaskmasterJack - 16/01/2011 12:08:48 AM 1006 Views
They most certainly do. Jacob - 18/01/2011 04:39:09 PM 1112 Views
This sounds awful to me. rebelaessedai - 13/01/2011 04:27:08 AM 1022 Views
Re: This sounds awful to me. TaskmasterJack - 14/01/2011 02:47:36 AM 1042 Views
Yikes. rebelaessedai - 14/01/2011 11:13:39 PM 1021 Views
I should have twigged on to that sooner. I would have if I had read more posts before answering. Tashmere - 13/01/2011 02:50:20 AM 1039 Views
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