Actually, I believe we were talking about the Nazi right or left.
Legolas Send a noteboard - 11/01/2011 07:04:56 PM
And sorry the simply fact that you have a new country mile and a half doesn't make your version the right one. Since we are talking US politics our definition of right and left is really the only one that matters. The Nazi party has more in common from a political philosophy point of view with American left.
No, it doesn't. The Nazi characteristics of extreme nationalism, conservative stances with regard to things like discipline, the position of women, the family, those are things that are considered right or far-right in America just like everywhere else. And I think it's safe to say that those things were more central to the political philosophy of the Nazis, in their own minds and in those of their detractors, than the relatively left-wing economic policies they were indeed implementing at the same time (in a time, one should point out, when every country, the US included, was implementing rather left-wing economic policies, because the Depression was just that bad). Now on the other hand you had the communists, who, firstly, had actually radical left-wing economic policies, and secondly, had rather left-wing ideas and policies on social issues: they were remarkably un-nationalistic in many ways ("workers of the world, unite!" and all that), were rather feminist for their time, and wanted to radically change the nature of society, which almost per definition is anti-conservative.
And if the far-right European parties nowadays are called far-right despite having relatively left-wing economic policies - often closer to the left than those of the mainstream right-wing parties of those countries - it's because those parties themselves attach far more importance to their conservative and anti-immigration stances, than to the economic ones.
I was just joking about the professors (at least mostly) but I don't think they are wrong. The nazies and the communist are opposite ends of the socialist movement not opposite ends of the political spectrum. Using the nazies to define the political spectrum and misleading ans inaccurate.
Well, you certainly won't see me argue with that last sentence. It's rarely very productive to bring up the Nazis in a political debate that isn't actually about Nazi Germany, but when Mein Kampf comes up, it's hard to do otherwise.
Other than that, allow me to quote from the Wikipedia article about "Spectrum":
"In most modern usages of spectrum there is a unifying theme between extremes at either end. Some older usages of the word did not have a unifying theme, but they led to modern ones through a sequence of events set out below. Modern usages in mathematics did evolve from a unifying theme, but this may be difficult to recognize."
Whenever graphic depictions of the political spectrum are made, here at least, they clearly show that the extreme left and extreme right are indeed closer together than the mainstream left and mainstream right - it's not a line, but rather something like two thirds of a circle, with the extremes not quite literally touching, but moving closer together again. And that has a lot to do with what you note about the similarities between far left and far right in terms of how they tend to the use of force and oppression to propagate their views, and their inclination towards the totalitarian.
If you prefer the graphic depictions that really use two axes (you could conceivably use more than two, but that gets very difficult to show on paper or on a screen), you'd get something quite different, that perhaps shows better how Stalin and Hitler can be, in some ways, closer to each other than either is to mainstream politicians, while still quite far apart.
The problem with Common knowledge is it is so often wrong. (This event was not about politics is was a crazy man with a gun. the fact that we make it so easy for crazy people to get guns should have been the direction the left went with this.) But I find it very odd that so many people think the US is the one with political violence problem when we have almost none and Europe seems to have a violent protest with people being killed and injured on pretty regular basis. Where do you see US politics turning ugly as compared to elsewhere? Which large country has less political violence then the US does? Compared the Europe we are a freaking beacon of sanity and calm.
Erm. Define "pretty regular basis". If you can get much further than Fortuyn and Van Gogh, I'll be impressed. But no, I didn't mean that the US has much more actual political violence. What I did mean was that the tone of the rhetoric and the loathing between the two sides is worse than in most other countries, and I think worse than than in all of the Western ones. Obviously it's good that that hasn't translated to significant amounts of political violence yet, and presumably won't in the near future either, but that hardly means there isn't a genuine problem.
The Arizona Tragedy and the Politics of Blood Libel
10/01/2011 04:02:29 AM
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The NYT and liberal media have created a climate of stupidity
10/01/2011 05:47:29 PM
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Pot, Kettle. I think you two should discuss your color.
10/01/2011 09:26:05 PM
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nice try but no
10/01/2011 09:52:01 PM
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"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means...."
10/01/2011 11:53:10 PM
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no you are just wearing Danny's blinders
11/01/2011 02:15:46 PM
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I try to steer clear of personal attacks.
11/01/2011 04:00:35 PM
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I try to make my point clear and I can't help if you skip them
11/01/2011 05:02:41 PM
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I didn't skip your points, I disputed them.
11/01/2011 05:51:10 PM
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you keep claiming both sides but you fail to offer any support
11/01/2011 06:00:41 PM
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Those who have accused specific people or groups will most likely have to backtrack and apologize.
10/01/2011 06:48:33 PM
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they will neither back track or apologize
10/01/2011 07:54:54 PM
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I don't really think the NYT has crossed that line I was talking about.
10/01/2011 09:54:36 PM
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not sure where you draw your line but this crosses mine
10/01/2011 10:11:04 PM
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Yes, well, Krugman is Krugman.
10/01/2011 10:25:31 PM
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You see to be arguing we should assume his political views were created by the politcal climate
11/01/2011 03:03:15 PM
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Indeed I am.
11/01/2011 06:18:56 PM
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it is not a wake up call to anything but left wing hestrics if their is no connection
11/01/2011 06:29:47 PM
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wasn't pim fortuyn a right winger though?
11/01/2011 04:33:26 PM
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Um, yes, that was pretty much the point I was making.
11/01/2011 06:22:06 PM
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Was there anyhting besides his stance on immigration to support the argument he was far right?
11/01/2011 06:31:05 PM
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Yes, though it's true that is the key part.
11/01/2011 07:11:13 PM
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can one posistion define you as being far right or far left?
11/01/2011 08:23:18 PM
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One single position? I wouldn't know, I can't think of any examples.
11/01/2011 08:41:58 PM
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... cut both ways because soulless opportunism knows no creed:
10/01/2011 09:46:31 PM
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They probably wouldn't say much because it really doesn't show much
10/01/2011 09:58:46 PM
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It really doesn't show that he has "left leanings".
10/01/2011 10:07:48 PM
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Well they call him a liberal and like it or not the Nazi movement was an extreme form of socialism
10/01/2011 10:22:04 PM
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Deep sigh.
10/01/2011 10:34:33 PM
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well we are talking about the US right and left not the European one
11/01/2011 01:11:30 PM
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Actually, I believe we were talking about the Nazi right or left.
11/01/2011 07:04:56 PM
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wow I really need to stop posting from my i-phone an you deserve a cookie for being able to follow
11/01/2011 07:48:35 PM
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A thousand times no.
11/01/2011 10:38:19 PM
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Bucnd and the Nazi part are and never were associtaed with what we consider American right politics
11/01/2011 11:34:46 PM
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What you do/n't "consider" part of the left/right is precisely the problem here.
12/01/2011 01:06:56 AM
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Liberal college professors didn't call the nazis far right, people who lived under Nazis did.
10/01/2011 10:56:33 PM
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If demoniizing your opponet makes your a fscist then you have made my argument for me
11/01/2011 01:25:51 PM
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In a word, no.
11/01/2011 04:29:36 PM
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really would you like to point to the right trying to use this to demonize the left?
11/01/2011 05:59:49 PM
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I already have, irrespective of your inability and/or refusal to see it.
11/01/2011 09:53:38 PM
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I don't know enough about the story to say much save that partisan finger pointing is wrong.
10/01/2011 10:30:51 PM
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First I don't even know who WorldNet is so I see no reasont o defend them
11/01/2011 01:36:44 PM
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For someone who doens't know who WND is you sure circled the wagons around them fast.
11/01/2011 04:21:40 PM
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No they are in no way the same
11/01/2011 05:06:43 PM
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They're precisely the same in tone.
11/01/2011 06:04:42 PM
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the only thing you have proven is that you have zero support for your argument
11/01/2011 06:36:14 PM
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Enough.
11/01/2011 10:18:59 PM
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your evidience is dribble and if that is the best you can I am sorry
11/01/2011 11:39:05 PM
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Liberals and Conservatives have rushed to frame Jared Lee Loughner’s motives...
10/01/2011 10:34:09 PM
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Which conseratives rushed to frame this for poltical gain?
11/01/2011 02:19:55 PM
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But that's how it always goes:"The animal is so treacherous; when it is attacked, it defends itself"
18/01/2011 03:15:35 PM
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