China's relations with North Korea are also worsening, though.
Werthead Send a noteboard - 25/11/2010 05:48:01 PM
China has clearly come to see North Korea as a liability rather than a close ally over the last few years, threatening peace in the region and thus threatening China's profit margins for trade in the area.
Over the last year or two, a number of 'academic' discussions have taken place in the Chinese media over the worth of the North Korean alliance, what China gets out of it and so on. Given that little happens in the Chinese media without the nod of Beijing, it's probable that these discussions are a warning shot directed at North Korea: "Don't rock the boat automatically assuming we'll be there to bail you out." Unfortunately, this may be a little too subtle for Pyongyang to take on board.
Certainly if North Korea blatantly provokes a war, I can't see China taking their side militarily. Likely what will happen is something similar to how Russia rolled into Kosovo. The war breaks out, lots of fighting along the DMZ, and Chinese 'peacekeepers' cross the border, occupy Pyongyang (or what's left of it after the American, South Korean and Japanese air strikes have finished) and stop the North Koreans from fighting. Lots of hardline negotiations eventually result in Korea being reunified under the southern leadership (with a ton of favourable trading concessions with China) and American troops pulling out. The problem of a democratic, unified Korea on China's doorstep is then outweighed by the many trillions of dollars South Korea has to spend to rebuild both itself and the North and hopefully the fact that any humanitarian crisis can be solved by the South and the UN, not China.
The problem is that this outcome still involves tens to hundreds of thousands of South Korean civilian deaths, probably many more in the North, something the South and the USA seem keen to avoid as much as possible. The issue for the South and the USA is that avoiding conflict may increase the likelihood of North Korea collapsing by itself, but it equally means that a later confrontation may take place at a time when North Korea has many more and more powerful nuclear weapons, and is thus far more dangerous.
Over the last year or two, a number of 'academic' discussions have taken place in the Chinese media over the worth of the North Korean alliance, what China gets out of it and so on. Given that little happens in the Chinese media without the nod of Beijing, it's probable that these discussions are a warning shot directed at North Korea: "Don't rock the boat automatically assuming we'll be there to bail you out." Unfortunately, this may be a little too subtle for Pyongyang to take on board.
Certainly if North Korea blatantly provokes a war, I can't see China taking their side militarily. Likely what will happen is something similar to how Russia rolled into Kosovo. The war breaks out, lots of fighting along the DMZ, and Chinese 'peacekeepers' cross the border, occupy Pyongyang (or what's left of it after the American, South Korean and Japanese air strikes have finished) and stop the North Koreans from fighting. Lots of hardline negotiations eventually result in Korea being reunified under the southern leadership (with a ton of favourable trading concessions with China) and American troops pulling out. The problem of a democratic, unified Korea on China's doorstep is then outweighed by the many trillions of dollars South Korea has to spend to rebuild both itself and the North and hopefully the fact that any humanitarian crisis can be solved by the South and the UN, not China.
The problem is that this outcome still involves tens to hundreds of thousands of South Korean civilian deaths, probably many more in the North, something the South and the USA seem keen to avoid as much as possible. The issue for the South and the USA is that avoiding conflict may increase the likelihood of North Korea collapsing by itself, but it equally means that a later confrontation may take place at a time when North Korea has many more and more powerful nuclear weapons, and is thus far more dangerous.
North Korea attacks South Korea and no one mentions it?
23/11/2010 10:56:03 AM
- 1361 Views
"Oh God, Oh God, we are all going to die?"
23/11/2010 11:09:30 AM
- 1149 Views
Yup, but the day Beijing decides they're better off not intervening the Appeasers look very dumb.
23/11/2010 11:23:35 AM
- 1000 Views
The appeasers look very dumb at this point regardless.
23/11/2010 04:11:41 PM
- 911 Views
yes, because we want to fight *ANOTHER* proxy war with china *NM*
23/11/2010 04:29:18 PM
- 515 Views
"Wanting" has nothing to do with it. There are few alternatives.
23/11/2010 04:50:02 PM
- 1049 Views
Honestly, it COULD go either way.
23/11/2010 05:14:18 PM
- 1185 Views
The fact that it could go either way is a testimony to the longevity of Chinese leaders.
23/11/2010 07:04:14 PM
- 994 Views
China's relations with North Korea are also worsening, though.
25/11/2010 05:48:01 PM
- 1340 Views
I don't believe in striking first but, frankly, it's long been a moot point.
23/11/2010 05:09:49 PM
- 1023 Views
You know I like to sleep in, remember?
23/11/2010 11:20:33 AM
- 986 Views
Agreed
23/11/2010 02:07:30 PM
- 1102 Views
I worry North Korea long ago decided to solve domestic problems with international aggression.
23/11/2010 02:26:36 PM
- 1008 Views
That is 'cause everyone else is hiding out in their nuclear bunkers
23/11/2010 11:40:33 AM
- 989 Views
Re: That is 'cause everyone else is hiding out in their nuclear bunkers
23/11/2010 11:46:03 AM
- 1034 Views
Re: That is 'cause everyone else is hiding out in their nuclear bunkers
23/11/2010 11:57:51 AM
- 917 Views
The really sad part is, that along with everything else worthwhile in the British Empire...
25/11/2010 09:49:00 AM
- 1159 Views
I actually had no clue.
23/11/2010 01:14:20 PM
- 1001 Views
Re: I actually had no clue.
23/11/2010 01:15:10 PM
- 867 Views
Re: I actually had no clue.
23/11/2010 04:32:17 PM
- 974 Views
Re: I actually had no clue.
23/11/2010 04:36:59 PM
- 935 Views
Careful; qualify all your generalizations and people (especially him) will think you're me.
25/11/2010 02:03:42 PM
- 1060 Views
Nuke the fuckers and be done with it. And let China know it's their fault. *NM*
23/11/2010 02:58:56 PM
- 487 Views
you know the world doesn't exist until america wakes up in the morning, right? *NM*
23/11/2010 04:27:27 PM
- 477 Views
OK, have had time to read it, and someone needs to fact check a very important part of that article.
23/11/2010 04:52:02 PM
- 1082 Views
Fact checking:
23/11/2010 08:38:57 PM
- 992 Views
The term "truce" used in a different Guardian article seems better.
23/11/2010 09:20:19 PM
- 917 Views
Well
23/11/2010 05:24:02 PM
- 1025 Views
Same reason we don't give all our allies (especially neighbors) our best hardware.
23/11/2010 07:43:54 PM
- 1001 Views
Actually, no, it looks like The Guardian is just schizoid on this subject.
23/11/2010 08:16:45 PM
- 1201 Views
This has been coming for a while but I hoped the West would step up and help out. *NM*
23/11/2010 08:31:40 PM
- 531 Views
There's not going to be any all-out conflict
24/11/2010 12:56:44 AM
- 1155 Views
They're getting aid from South Korea now, and killing them anyway.
24/11/2010 01:20:33 AM
- 1100 Views
No kidding, that's been going on for quite some time.
24/11/2010 02:49:50 AM
- 975 Views
That is the crux of it, I suppose.
24/11/2010 03:02:40 PM
- 1049 Views
~shrugs~ SK has lived with this a long time, and will continue to do so.
24/11/2010 10:26:44 PM
- 1029 Views
Parts of it have; some South Koreans stopped living with it a few days ago.
25/11/2010 01:48:02 PM
- 1628 Views