Active Users:492 Time:26/11/2024 01:47:41 AM
Which neither you nor Cecil Adams have disproven here, so, youbetcha. Joel Send a noteboard - 08/11/2010 09:50:07 PM
I'm just going to address the premise here, then leave you with a rebuttal for the very old and discredited Ketchup thing, before any one not born before 1981 gets that little piece of nonsense stuck in their heads.

Aisha, who has a history of posting hyper-partisan thinly researched attack pieces on republicans, asked why we dislike Pelosi. This was a bizarre question, but given that she's eased up on the attack pieces in recent months I thought she might be realizing its not so black and white and actually wanted reasons. I gave them. They don't have to be true, though I back everything I said and you've not shown a word of that false. True or not is irrelevant, just like the accusations on Palin or Bush or Cheney, what matters is that they are why, not that they are true, in this context, for her question.

Now, you have come by and backed the 'starving kids' stuff, instead of simply acknowledging it as a bit of over the top political rhetoric done by both sides. Fine and well, but seriously Joel, how do you dare do that when you complain so much about the 'death panels' rhetoric? Do you not maintain at least enough objectivity to see the parallel?


From Straight Dope -
I'm citing Cecil Adams here because to the best of my knowledge he's politically neutral, very factual, and always humorous.

Did the Reagan-era USDA really classify ketchup as a vegetable?
July 16, 2004

Dear Cecil:

The phrase "ketchup is a vegetable" is coming up a lot in discussions of President Reagan's recent demise. What's the story behind that line? Who classifies ketchup, or any other food, as a vegetable, meat, legume, etc? Why do they feel a need to make these official classifications? Who in the Reagan administration actually made that decision? I've also heard that the ketchup-as-vegetable thing was really Carter's doing and that salsa was classified as a vegetable by Clinton. When I search for the origin of the phrase, all I get are a bunch of political sites repeating it without explanation.

— Russ, via e-mail

No wonder. The story is so convoluted that it defied simple explanation at the time. Even today, the episode can be plausibly presented (depending on the political leanings of the presenter) as either a simple bureaucratic screwup or an unsuccessful effort by the right to pursue its agenda at the expense of the nation's kids.

Ketchup and other food products are classified for different purposes by different agencies under a wide variety of federal programs. The classification in this case was by the U.S. Department of Agriculture for its subsidized school lunch program. Then as now, local school districts could receive reimbursement for each lunch served provided it met minimum standards. In mid-1981, only a few months after Reagan took office, Congress cut $1 billion from child-nutrition funding and gave the USDA 90 days--the blink of an eye, for the federal bureaucracy--to come up with new standards that would enable school districts to economize, in theory without compromising nutrition.

The USDA convened a panel of nutritionists and food service directors to ponder what to do. One option on the table--no one later would admit to putting it there--was to "accept catsup as a fruit/vegetable when used as an ingredient." Some panel members seized on this as an opportunity to discuss whether to count ketchup even if used as a condiment. From what I can tell, the motive wasn't so much penuriousness as trying to face facts about what kids would actually eat. USDA standards at the time required that a reimbursable lunch consist of five items: meat, milk, bread, and two servings of fruit or vegetables. Many kids refused to eat the veggies and the stuff wound up as "plate waste." Would-be realists on the panel reasoned that if they could count ketchup as a vegetable they could meet federal standards without having to throw away so many lima beans, thereby saving money while having no impact on the kids. Looked at in a certain light, it made sense. Ketchup wasn't the only newly permissible substitute: pickle relish and conceivably other condiments could also count as vegetables (precise interpretation was left to state officials); protein sources like tofu or cottage cheese could replace meat; and corn chips, pretzels, and other snacks could replace bread. Minimum portion sizes were also reduced, purportedly another effort to reduce waste.

Mid-level Reaganauts at the USDA saw all this as a matter of giving the states more latitude; wiser heads might have realized that the rest of the world would see it as taking food away from children. Unfortunately for Reagan, the 90-day deadline allowed no time for higher review. When the proposed new rules were released for comment in September 1981, food activists went ballistic. Democratic politicians staged photo ops where they feasted on skimpy-looking meals that conformed to the new standards. The mortified administration withdrew the proposal and the USDA official in charge of the program was transferred, a move widely interpreted as a firing. One person who didn't come out of the mess with ketchup on his face was Jimmy Carter, who'd had nothing to do with it.

So, a garden-variety goof, right? It looked worse than that, thanks to agriculture secretary John Block, an antiregulatory zealot who attempted to defend the new rules after the fact, claiming they'd been misunderstood. Nonsense; they were just stupid. All intentions aside, counting condiments as vegetables and reducing portion sizes were an invitation to abuse. A few months later the USDA adopted for preschools and elementary schools a more sensible policy already used in high schools, called "offer vs. serve"--schools still had to offer the five meal components, but students could refuse any two. In the 90s, the Clinton administration got little grief when it proposed counting salsa as a vegetable, as properly made salsa has more nutritional heft than sugar-laden ketchup.

A reprise of the ketchup fiasco loomed recently when a federal judge approved new USDA regs classifying batter-coated french fries as a fresh vegetable. Another attempt by the GOP to feed junk food to the playground set? Actually, it had more to do with creditor priority during bankruptcy settlements, believe it or not--but please, don't ask me to explain more than one bit of bureaucratic arcana at a time.

— Cecil Adams

So in other words, the charge is valid on its face, as I said: They WERE penny pinching, counting ketchup as a veggie was a direct result, Reagan signed off on it, and one of the umpteen "fire and regulation BAD!" Reaganites tried to defend it. Meanwhile, his penny penching boss raised taxes on the poor to pay for tax cuts for the wealthiest. So, yes, the Republican Party enriched millionaires by making poor children go hungry. Had they not been handing out tax cuts to those who didn't need them (during a recession, no less) it wouldn't be an issue, which, as much as the greater nutritional value, is why Clinton doing the same with salsa doesn't bother me: He was raising EVERYONES taxes at the time, because he was trying to balance a budget. For all the talk about balanced budgets under both, I believe Reagan and Bush raised taxes a grand total of once each, when the failures of Reagans first term created a second recession and when Bush saw first hand how accurate his term "voodoo economics" was. In other words, we've raised taxes about three times in as many decades, cutting them furiously in the interim, a growing federal and trade deficit along with a bloated dollar. Personally, I pity anyone working at the CBO these days because their bosses can't handle simple integer math.

And yes, it's completely different from "death panels", if only because the very private insurers said to be our saviors invented them decades ago and have used them ever since; you can't blame Obama for creating something twenty years old even if it DID function as described (also, the death panel charges are factually untrue and the people making them know it, while the ketchup-as-vegetable charge is factually accurate and we both know it). Wikipedia even claims that during the healthcare debate insurers tried to insert a rider that both prohibited the feds from using cost benefit analysis boards AND guaranteed private insurers the right to do so in perpetuity. So much for running government like a business, eh? ;)

Your other point is also valid as far as it goes; yes, Republicans are understandably annoyed when Democrats (or anyone) make shaming accusations against them, but when the accusations are TRUE much of your points impact is blunted. Again, it boils down to being mad that Dems tell the public things the Republican Party has actually done. FWIW, I'm sorry the GOP routinely does shameful things, too; I'm sorry both major parties do, which is why I support neither.

In fact, I had a thought last night about a true Independent Party, whose only ideology would be "We will vote for neither Republicans or Democrats". Granted, you don't have to look farther than the Tea Party (or the American Party, which has numerous similarities) to know a serious party needs a platform, not just a slogan.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.

Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!

LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Reply to message
Why do conservatives hate Nancy Pelosi? - 07/11/2010 09:26:53 PM 1271 Views
possibly because she is too good at her job - 07/11/2010 10:10:28 PM 898 Views
Re: possibly because she is too good at her job - 08/11/2010 12:12:19 AM 661 Views
Misogyny? Really? - 08/11/2010 08:18:41 PM 632 Views
Well, not to point out the obvious, but she was Speaker of the House - 07/11/2010 10:18:33 PM 742 Views
Re: Well, not to point out the obvious, but she was Speaker of the House - 08/11/2010 12:14:42 AM 636 Views
One of those charges is valid though, sadly. - 08/11/2010 03:02:35 AM 685 Views
The ketchup controversy, seriously? - 08/11/2010 06:00:58 AM 943 Views
Which neither you nor Cecil Adams have disproven here, so, youbetcha. - 08/11/2010 09:50:07 PM 1033 Views
Joel has a few pet "facts" that he bases his world view around - 10/11/2010 02:08:20 PM 668 Views
Hey, I didn't bring up the GOP starving kids to enrich millionaires. - 10/11/2010 05:53:07 PM 724 Views
really one interview with one guy who has been out of power for decades - 10/11/2010 06:57:16 PM 599 Views
The interview was quite relevant when given. - 10/11/2010 09:32:27 PM 647 Views
but you know all about the inner workings because of an entire party? - 10/11/2010 11:29:35 PM 637 Views
Never said that, but I didn't quote myself, either. - 11/11/2010 01:40:35 PM 743 Views
No, Pelosi did, that's the point - 10/11/2010 09:41:39 PM 760 Views
Re: - 08/11/2010 02:13:25 AM 642 Views
Because Nancy Pelosi is rather...liberal in her Political Positions. - 08/11/2010 02:20:56 AM 713 Views
I'm not sure calling her "pro-Obamacare" isn't slander. - 08/11/2010 03:03:52 AM 669 Views
I wouldn't call myself conservative but I don't like her because... - 08/11/2010 02:40:19 AM 683 Views
Yet she accomplished a lot more than Obama and Reids bipartisanship. - 08/11/2010 03:13:33 AM 644 Views
No, she didn't. - 08/11/2010 03:42:45 AM 679 Views
Bipartisanship was never on the table, and Obama DID try (too hard). - 08/11/2010 09:30:15 PM 627 Views
he had a luncheon and everything - 10/11/2010 04:16:01 PM 597 Views
Trying to work with people dedicated to his demise was a SYMPTOM of his leadership failings. - 10/11/2010 05:44:29 PM 731 Views
Trying to pick off a few republicans is not the same thing as working with them - 10/11/2010 06:56:04 PM 644 Views
After that link... - 10/11/2010 09:44:32 PM 612 Views
yes but when the middle hate you then you are in real trouble - 10/11/2010 11:34:28 PM 707 Views
I'm just gonna put this idea out there... - 08/11/2010 07:17:36 PM 799 Views
I can see Russia from my house? *NM* - 09/11/2010 12:15:40 AM 309 Views
Yeah, I thought he explained it rather well, until... - 09/11/2010 08:26:13 AM 624 Views
You could probably talk directly to me... - 09/11/2010 03:33:32 PM 634 Views
That's true - 10/11/2010 08:24:33 AM 649 Views
Did she actually say that? - 09/11/2010 03:31:50 PM 660 Views
She did say that, I'm not sure if it's EXACTLY what she said... - 09/11/2010 04:04:02 PM 625 Views
it doesn't matter what she says people need to believe she is stupid so they find proof even - 09/11/2010 04:36:28 PM 812 Views
well if it makes you feel better, I don't think she's particularly unintelligent - 09/11/2010 05:03:03 PM 663 Views
I don't agree with a lot of what she says either - 09/11/2010 06:33:14 PM 668 Views
Believe she actually said something about having Russia for a neighbor gave her foreign policy cred. - 10/11/2010 06:04:15 PM 805 Views
she did what every govenor who runs for the White House did - 10/11/2010 07:00:50 PM 672 Views
True. - 10/11/2010 09:36:59 PM 729 Views
Re: Did she actually say that? - 09/11/2010 04:05:55 PM 751 Views
Whaaaaaaaa? Where have you BEEN? *NM* - 09/11/2010 06:44:04 PM 230 Views
She merely said one could see Russia from somewhere in Alaska, which I believe is correct. - 09/11/2010 04:15:05 PM 933 Views
But silly in the context - 09/11/2010 04:36:09 PM 655 Views
great job proving his point - 09/11/2010 04:23:02 PM 594 Views
Re: Why do conservatives hate Nancy Pelosi? - 09/11/2010 02:21:28 PM 715 Views
I don't hate her. I just have a great dislike for her political views. - 10/11/2010 09:38:38 PM 649 Views
She's too conservative for you? Really? *NM* - 11/11/2010 05:22:59 PM 387 Views
Yes. I come from a country where she would be seen as quite right-wing politician. - 13/11/2010 12:29:26 AM 614 Views
Wow, what qualifies as far to the left in Sweden? - 13/11/2010 01:52:40 AM 590 Views
Leftist anarchist. - 15/11/2010 05:50:10 PM 856 Views
Yes, that would fit, thanks - 16/11/2010 01:29:35 AM 621 Views

Reply to Message