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It's nothing at all like cultural relativism. Joel Send a noteboard - 15/10/2010 01:16:10 AM
There's a difference between allowing for the idea or the expression of intolerance, and tolerating a policy of intolerance. I don't disallow that the KKK should be allow to hold marches and want to found an Aryan race, but I would never support that policy in the name of "understanding" or "tolerance" or "Voltaire" or anything else. I'm fine if Joe the revivalist preacher from down the street wants to rail against homosexuals all day (or more frequently, rail homosexuals all night, and then get pulled over for a DUI leaving some backhills gay bar) but I'm not cool with a policy of intolerance. So no, I do no support the policy of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell", but I do support your right or anyone else's right to want to have it as a policy. It's like cultural relativism -- I love the philosophy, but in my magic world, two Arab kids wouldn't be buried up to their shoulders and stoned to death just for getting a little horny.

Cultural relativism says cannibalism is moral in cultures where it's the norm, because there is no true "norm. " Instead, no matter how barbaric and inhumane an act, if there is, was or could be a culture somewhere where it was accepted, it's not immoral, and if you'd just open your mind a little more you'd see that. Needless to say I strongly disagree, because I still hold that your right to be a cannibal ends where it intersects my liver (chianti or no. ) Among other reasons, but most of those would reference my religious beliefs, so.... ;)

Tolerance is another thing entirely, because supporting my right to want a policy you'll legally prevent me from implementing... well, how would you feel if I told you I support your right to WANT to marry someone of your gender, but will still do everything in my power to make it legally impossible? Pretty empty statement, no? You can and should oppose the policy if you think it's morally wrong, but as long as I keep it on private property you don't have the right to do anything more than try to be persuasive (and I do mean "persuasive" not "coercive. " ) Maybe that's what you meant and I just misunderstood (in which case I'm wasting a helluva lot of keystrokes, but it would hardly be the first time. :P)

Really, what other basis is there for tolerating things like the Klan? Unless we're going to affirm them via moral relativism there's not much to defend about the beliefs themselves, so the only options remaining are to either defend their RIGHT to those reprehensible beliefs, or condemn even that as unacceptable in a civilized country. The courts have come VERY close to doing just that with the Klan--on the grounds that they incite violence even when not actively committing it.

That, I still maintain, is the litmus test, not how mainstream a practice is in any given society. If it were the latter this thread and THOUSANDS of others like it over the years wouldn't exist: Homosexuality is decidedly less common in every modern society I can think of, so either moral relativism isn't an applicable metric here, or there's nothing to debate. This isn't complicated, though it can be a bit nuanced: You can disagree with people. Strongly. Loudly. Uncompromisingly. You can try to dissuade them (shouting epitaphs actually falls more under the category of "assault" than "free speech" incidentally; you may not get prosecuted, but if you get the crap beat out of you the other person ought to have a shot at claiming you provoked him. ) You just can't do anything to actually PREVENT them, because it's their choice. That, and the fact it's counter to very basis of Christianity, is why I'm not canvassing the neighborhood dragging people to the river.
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This message last edited by Joel on 15/10/2010 at 01:17:23 AM
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Love the Sinner - 13/10/2010 04:07:28 PM 1181 Views
I have to think about that for a while. - 13/10/2010 04:30:56 PM 714 Views
Suicide is significantly higher in young gay populations - 13/10/2010 05:36:01 PM 654 Views
That is not what I think requires thought - 13/10/2010 05:56:06 PM 658 Views
Nossy I ain't a mind reader, no matter how I try or how much I would do Jean Grey - 13/10/2010 06:06:42 PM 788 Views
for ze record - 14/10/2010 02:54:07 AM 679 Views
ok now show that it caused by what Christian beliefs *NM* - 13/10/2010 06:50:32 PM 341 Views
I don't think it's the belief's themselves - 14/10/2010 12:20:01 AM 699 Views
The churches who encourage people to bully gays should be condemned - 14/10/2010 06:43:06 PM 688 Views
Re: I have to think about that for a while. - 13/10/2010 06:29:09 PM 682 Views
He was very frank but completely founded - 13/10/2010 04:34:46 PM 751 Views
Ah, that Ghandi quote sure does get around. (which is funny, since he wasn't a Christian) - 13/10/2010 05:07:42 PM 776 Views
I'm not sure that is true - 13/10/2010 05:16:30 PM 660 Views
I think you are missing his point - 13/10/2010 05:45:45 PM 742 Views
Question (and this one actually is asking for information )... - 13/10/2010 06:42:17 PM 574 Views
Yes and no - 13/10/2010 06:53:26 PM 835 Views
Okay, fair enough. *NM* - 13/10/2010 07:48:21 PM 303 Views
I would think... - 14/10/2010 04:35:31 AM 732 Views
I have seen gays be bullied before - 13/10/2010 07:02:35 PM 768 Views
You just didn't listen to a thing I said *NM* - 13/10/2010 07:09:29 PM 302 Views
I think there's truth in this as well. - 13/10/2010 07:55:00 PM 711 Views
churches tend to refelect society as much if not more then they influence it - 14/10/2010 07:15:35 PM 682 Views
Re: I think you are missing his point - 13/10/2010 08:30:42 PM 742 Views
Re: I think you are missing his point - 13/10/2010 09:55:52 PM 750 Views
Re: I think you are missing his point - 14/10/2010 03:49:14 PM 736 Views
Actually you can very much debate whether homosexuality is a sin on a textual level - 14/10/2010 05:49:22 PM 767 Views
Re: Actually you can very much debate whether homosexuality is a sin on a textual level - 14/10/2010 08:52:24 PM 777 Views
Do you know greek or hebrew? - 14/10/2010 08:57:32 PM 636 Views
I know a few words here and there, but not really. Do you? - 14/10/2010 10:46:36 PM 761 Views
I don't look to Christianity for my answers - 15/10/2010 03:02:16 PM 742 Views
Re: I don't look to Christianity for my answers - 15/10/2010 04:27:25 PM 780 Views
You're kind of sidestepping a large part of his point - 13/10/2010 05:51:53 PM 786 Views
so should Christians abandon other religious conviction to stop bullying? - 13/10/2010 07:39:54 PM 685 Views
Re: You're kind of sidestepping a large part of his point - 13/10/2010 08:23:07 PM 705 Views
That seems a little myopic to me. - 14/10/2010 09:16:27 AM 697 Views
I think he is jackass that does not believe other's can have apoint of view - 13/10/2010 06:48:12 PM 679 Views
That's right, bullying would go away if we didn't have Christians to make moral judgements on things - 13/10/2010 08:11:27 PM 769 Views
I mostly agree - 13/10/2010 08:19:00 PM 836 Views
most of the bullies I remember from school were not known for their regular church attendance - 14/10/2010 07:24:06 PM 647 Views
I thought I pretty much agreed with you on that point - 14/10/2010 07:44:07 PM 709 Views
Interesting - 13/10/2010 08:56:46 PM 1000 Views
Sometime rants do work and change people's mind - 13/10/2010 09:23:39 PM 596 Views
and sometoimes they are just rants *NM* - 13/10/2010 10:01:55 PM 282 Views
Okay my response now - 14/10/2010 06:04:02 PM 735 Views
He becomes what he hates. - 14/10/2010 02:40:19 AM 861 Views
Good stuff. *NM* - 14/10/2010 02:56:44 AM 304 Views
Re: - 14/10/2010 03:06:36 AM 753 Views
I think Chora has dibs on that bumper sticker. - 14/10/2010 09:35:02 AM 818 Views
Re: - 14/10/2010 11:50:04 PM 761 Views
It's nothing at all like cultural relativism. - 15/10/2010 01:16:10 AM 663 Views
Re: It's nothing at all like cultural relativism. - 16/10/2010 05:20:56 AM 778 Views
Re: It's nothing at all like cultural relativism. - 16/10/2010 07:16:21 AM 693 Views
I don't think there is any question... - 14/10/2010 04:42:45 AM 714 Views
If I may quibble: - 14/10/2010 05:22:22 AM 540 Views
He's bullying Christians - 14/10/2010 04:47:13 AM 694 Views
I agree - 14/10/2010 04:09:23 PM 791 Views
Two seperate things are mingled here - 14/10/2010 09:50:42 AM 896 Views

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