I hadn't read that other exchange yet, it made more sense after that.
Legolas Send a noteboard - 18/08/2010 12:35:18 PM
Yes, Legolas, I know your debating style well enough to know that no analogy will ever be good enough that you can't find a flaw in it However, I don't think it invalidates the point I was trying to make, and I don't think your analogy holds up perfectly either. This situation isn't like a British cultural center being built in modern day Boston, it would be like a British cultural center being built very close to the site of the massacre back when the massacre was still quite fresh in the citizens' minds. That WOULD be very insensitive, just as this is.
That flaw in your analogy was only part of my argument - the other part was that as long as the mosque is not actually on or literally right across from Ground Zero, it's impossible to draw a logical line of how far it should be to be sufficiently respectful. Whereas in your examples, that distance argument was not really relevant.
And considering the arbitrariness of that distance, the way in which this issue is presented is likely to be crucial in determining people's opinions. If someone hears "they're gonna build a mosque at Ground Zero!", which is how it's often reported, and then after that finds out that no, it's two blocks away, then obviously they're going to think "two blocks, that's nothing, still too close". Present the story in a different way - they're going to build a community center in downtown Manhattan which also includes a mosque with a general message of tolerance and reconciliation between religions, and that center will be located two blocks from Ground Zero - and it's not nearly as offensive. People may still object to it, but they're likely to be a lot less angry about it.
Just look at how this thing came to be such a big controversy - I read about it back when it was announced in December, it was on the front page of the NYT apparently. And nobody protested, other than a number of family members of 9/11 victims quoted in the NYT article. Then suddenly the whole thing explodes months later. If that doesn't prove that the way the issue is presented matters a lot, or that the media and political pundits have played a very ugly role in this matter, I don't know what does.
I don't believe that the ideals America was founded on require me to approve of double standards OR believe that members of a group that was attacked or had an atrocity committed against it are not allowed to have non-PC opinions. Note that I am in no way saying I want the government to come shut down the mosque or make them move it or anything like that. THAT would be against the ideals America was founded on, and I would be far angrier about that than I am about this. This situation is just some jerks being insensitive. The other would be a massive overstepping of government boundaries.
Well, but you're feeling offended by comments made against the opponents of the mosque, comments which are partially inspired by those opponents who *do* want to actually stop this from happening. The people opposing the project aren't a monolithic group either, and not all of them make that distinction between "I'm against it" and "I'm against it but wouldn't try to stop it".
And certainly people stating an opinion like yours doesn't go against what the US is supposed to stand for, but if the pressure from the many people with that opinion, combined with the smaller group who goes further and wants to take active action to prevent it, results in the sponsors being forced to give up on the project, well, that sort of would go against the American ideals. Though I'll admit it's more a matter of failing to actively promote them than of really violating them, as long as the actual rights of this organization aren't violated.
My anger here is directed at the builders of the mosque being insensitive toward the victims and site of the attack, while possibly hiding behind a pretense of reconciliation (I say possibly because it's not quite clear to me if they themselves are claiming this or their supporters) despite showing little to no interest in the actual feelings of the wronged party, and the supporters who are vilifying the detractors and implying that their objections are "bad" or "unamerican," and simplifying their motives into that tired old standby of "xenophobia."
The last thing first - it's a natural enough thing, I think, in the political debate, to focus on the worst or most offensive people on the other side, make comments about them and then sort of imply that the moderate people on that side are tainted by association. But of course that doesn't make it right. I think the charge of xenophobia is certainly justified in some cases here, but as a generalization against everyone who thinks the mosque ideally shouldn't be built there, obviously it's wrong.
For the first bit, though, "reconciliation" is a misleading term the way you use it imho, because the builders haven't done anything wrong, while the primary victims of the attack aren't the same as the people protesting against it now, either. Who is "the wronged party"? No matter how narrowly or widely you define that concept - families of 9/11 victims, all New Yorkers, all Americans - you're always going to have various opinions among that group, and it's pointless to try and appease them all. Especially when you don't even have anything to do with the ones responsible for the wrong, even if people associate you with them. Some people would have felt these builders to be insensitive no matter what. If one is to believe the NYT article I linked to in reply to Jeo, it can be said more or less objectively that these people should have been more prepared on the PR front than they were, should have reached out more to the community about their building. Then they'd probably have had more supporters and fewer detractors. If they had planned their building two blocks further away, they'd also have had more supporters and fewer detractors. But those things wouldn't have made any difference in essentials - only in determining the amount of people who consider it insensitive.
I never said anything like what you're claiming. I don't think people who agree with the mosque are being unamerican, although many of them certainly seem to imply that those who disagree with the mosque are being so (as I said in another post, believing in religious tolerance doesn't mean you must therefore express approval of every action taken by a particular religious group). My comment was more an expression of my annoyance with a point raised in another post, about how we always need to be careful of how we "look," to non-Americans, and how some seem to be so eager to stomp all over the feelings and even vilify those who are genuinely distressed by the idea of this mosque being where it is in order to look good to the rest of the world (in particular Europe, since that's where the snotty criticism is most likely to come from). I wasn't necessarily referring to anyone in this post (although I think the whole bunch of you can be big pricks sometimes, I don't hold it against you since I can be a big one too ).
I hadn't read that other exchange yet then, and so I interpreted the swipe at Europe coming out of nowhere that way. After I read it, it made more sense. I don't think the US should be led overmuch by foreign public opinion, no, because foreign public opinion isn't much better informed, and often much worse, than American public opinion. I.e. fairly damn clueless at times. What it should be led to some extent by, though, is the hypothetical foreign opinion of someone looking at the US from a distance and judging it intelligently. In other words, yes, trying to live up to the ideals America takes such pride in - at home and abroad. Nobody's perfect, and certainly in foreign policy such ideals often have to be sacrificed for pragmatic concerns, but it would be a shame to stop trying.
To be more specific about this case, as long as nobody actually stops the mosque from being built, there's no real harm done in the eyes of this hypothetical observer, but if you look at it in the pattern - DPW, Keith Ellison's Qur'an, the madrasah controversy and birthers, now this - it's certainly a real concern that the Muslim world gets the wrong idea about America (and Europeans too, yes, but those aren't as important in the greater scheme of things, right? ), which is bad. And worse if that idea isn't even wrong. Obviously an individual doesn't base his opinion on considerations of how it will look if many people share that opinion, but all the same, there's something to be said in this situation for hiding the feelings of discomfort you get at this mosque thing in order to make clear that America is plenty supportive of the right kind of Muslims, just not of the wrong kind.
Wait, wait WAIT! The location for the so-called "mosque at ground zero" is actually 2 blocks away?!
17/08/2010 03:19:02 PM
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Another stupid question...is it even actually a mosque?
17/08/2010 03:28:37 PM
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it's both from what I've heard.
17/08/2010 04:00:54 PM
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sort of like most churches, mosques and temples? *NM*
17/08/2010 04:04:12 PM
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mmm, i think more like...
17/08/2010 04:08:55 PM
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my wife's church has a play ground and community center
17/08/2010 04:47:52 PM
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Been hearing a lot on NPR
17/08/2010 03:32:42 PM
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I could see it being insensitive if it were actually where the towers used to be.
17/08/2010 03:43:18 PM
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This could be part of the reason that most of the opposition doesn't seem to be coming from locals.
17/08/2010 03:53:06 PM
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seriously, it's not like property is some ample commodity in NYC *NM*
17/08/2010 04:03:24 PM
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you should probably keep in mind....
17/08/2010 04:02:25 PM
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So
17/08/2010 04:06:18 PM
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Ground Zero specifically refers to the north and south towers where the planes struck...
17/08/2010 04:26:40 PM
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it certainly has turned into a political land mine for Obama...
17/08/2010 03:54:03 PM
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True
17/08/2010 04:02:04 PM
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unfortunately...
17/08/2010 04:05:08 PM
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This is beginning to sound familiar.
17/08/2010 05:18:37 PM
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with the senate majority leader weighing it I don't believe it is all how it is mostly on the right
17/08/2010 05:58:10 PM
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Well, since day 1 of this whole debate alot of the opposition has come from the right.
17/08/2010 10:50:49 PM
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you assume it is pandering maybe they just agree with the majority
18/08/2010 02:30:53 AM
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I'm not saying it's a partisan issue, but it has turned political for all the wrong reasons.
18/08/2010 04:18:49 AM
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is the idea that it is not to close to ground zero the misinformation you are refering to?
18/08/2010 03:09:17 PM
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Well, it's not like they're literally on ground zero.
18/08/2010 08:54:08 PM
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Guess which of them will be out of a job in January?
18/08/2010 01:22:49 PM
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the only reason Obama won't be out of job is he isn't running
18/08/2010 03:10:58 PM
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Oh, I dunno if you could translate the current numbers into Obamas defeat.
18/08/2010 03:52:18 PM
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it was a large event so two half blocks really is pretty damn close
17/08/2010 04:03:17 PM
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Here's a map of the site for perspective
17/08/2010 04:08:41 PM
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so 2 blocks from the superblock then?
17/08/2010 04:13:03 PM
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I guess, superblock is an obscure term to this country lad
17/08/2010 04:41:11 PM
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It may not necessarily matter to people who are aware of that fact.
17/08/2010 05:13:12 PM
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mk, well, to my mind (being from phoeni, 1 full city block is about 1 mile.
17/08/2010 05:15:49 PM
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A mile is a serious exaggeration, surely.
17/08/2010 05:24:48 PM
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Remember, I did say in Phoenix
17/08/2010 05:27:43 PM
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I really need to see Phoenix some day.
17/08/2010 05:32:40 PM
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i still think houston is more spread out than phoenix
18/08/2010 08:21:10 AM
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unless you go far enough west of course
18/08/2010 03:30:45 PM
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Absolutely.
17/08/2010 05:28:38 PM
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Yeah, and it seems to be about 10 autobuses in distance on Google Earth.
17/08/2010 05:29:43 PM
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Google Earth says 500 feet between mosque and GZ *NM*
17/08/2010 05:30:59 PM
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*edit* Just for reference... one mile = 5280 feet, 500ft = approx 1/10 of a mile.
17/08/2010 06:26:19 PM
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Judging by Google Earth, the blocks inbetween both contain a single large building. (edit)
17/08/2010 07:08:05 PM
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Clarify: 500 ft between the mosque and the border of the area on the map? *NM*
17/08/2010 07:03:51 PM
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Personally, I think this supports Ave's point.
17/08/2010 04:16:15 PM
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You know what else is on Park Place? A strip club.
17/08/2010 11:58:56 PM
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Really? I had no idea
18/08/2010 12:06:27 AM
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Re: Really? I had no idea
18/08/2010 12:24:54 AM
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Hmm...
18/08/2010 01:23:14 AM
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knowing there's a strip club and "walking those streets"; seems like you've "gotten around"
18/08/2010 02:03:14 AM
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They're building on the hallowed ground of a Burlington Coat Factory!
17/08/2010 04:13:06 PM
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how so?
17/08/2010 04:14:17 PM
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From when the Moors conquered Spain
17/08/2010 04:18:18 PM
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to clarify though
17/08/2010 04:50:19 PM
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Yes, but you have to remember the mindset of those protesting.
17/08/2010 09:49:26 PM
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Sorry, but the card says it was "the Moops" so you must be wrong.
18/08/2010 03:56:11 PM
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Ezra Klein made a good point in the Washington Post...
17/08/2010 04:33:31 PM
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that is hardly the same thing
17/08/2010 04:56:43 PM
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My question is, why would you want to put a mosque/community center/thing that close?
17/08/2010 04:39:05 PM
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angry New Yorkers?
17/08/2010 04:45:01 PM
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I was going to guess 4 protests to your earlier post.
17/08/2010 04:50:08 PM
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We do not live in fear of what "a few crazy people" might do. *NM*
18/08/2010 12:02:06 AM
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Re: angry New Yorkers?
17/08/2010 04:53:58 PM
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I was wondering about that.
17/08/2010 04:56:28 PM
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angry New Yorkers? Geez, we are more civilized than that, thank you. *NM*
18/08/2010 12:01:12 AM
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not really *NM*
18/08/2010 02:31:46 AM
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your opinion is noted. now go eff yourself. *NM*
18/08/2010 04:11:25 AM
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that's pretty good
18/08/2010 04:44:14 AM
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That's right. Why resort to violence when a good rant will do? *NM*
18/08/2010 06:09:27 AM
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and a heart fuck off to you but thanks for the ironic reply *NM*
18/08/2010 03:18:25 PM
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How is it ironic? *NM*
18/08/2010 03:43:50 PM
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How was his uncivilized response ironic? *NM*
18/08/2010 04:18:17 PM
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Re: How was his uncivilized response ironic?
18/08/2010 04:23:25 PM
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Aaah
18/08/2010 04:31:02 PM
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Because the building is cheap as hell, because they're mostly abandoned in those areas
18/08/2010 01:25:13 AM
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Something I'm confused on
17/08/2010 04:59:41 PM
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another thing to consider.
17/08/2010 05:02:38 PM
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You'll have to explain to me what that has to do with what I said
17/08/2010 05:10:21 PM
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Of course you're confused. It was a tangental thought.
17/08/2010 06:06:29 PM
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Fair enough, I can't really criticize others for going off on tangents since I do it so much *NM*
17/08/2010 06:36:54 PM
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From what I understand, there's another mosque very close to the site
17/08/2010 05:06:26 PM
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I understand there's also a strip club and a xxx movie rental shop within that same 2 blocks radius.
17/08/2010 05:09:26 PM
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True but the buildings were not nocked down by radical strippers *NM*
17/08/2010 05:52:04 PM
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What do strip clubs and dirty movies and gay bars have to do with 9/11? *NM*
18/08/2010 12:33:59 AM
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Nothing, which is precisely the point. *NM*
18/08/2010 12:37:52 AM
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Can you explain your point to me then? Because I'm not following it.
18/08/2010 01:21:13 AM
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The argument is that it's "hallowed ground" and therefore should be treated with "respect"
18/08/2010 01:26:44 AM
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Pretty much what Greg said.
18/08/2010 09:39:33 AM
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then you are missing the point
18/08/2010 04:02:49 PM
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In all fairness...
18/08/2010 09:46:26 PM
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these guys are not babes in the woods
19/08/2010 12:28:24 PM
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This whole debate disgusts me.
17/08/2010 05:24:56 PM
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Jon Stewart made good point last night
17/08/2010 05:34:19 PM
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but it's the CONCEPT!!! practical effect is not the POINT of political debate!! *NM*
17/08/2010 05:53:30 PM
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which is why Obama was crazy to get anywhere this issue
17/08/2010 06:01:44 PM
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He's damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't
17/08/2010 06:18:16 PM
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More than anything, I see this being a sensitivity issue....
17/08/2010 07:43:45 PM
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17/08/2010 07:52:07 PM
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Right on.
17/08/2010 08:09:44 PM
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yah, it sounds like the builders aren't being very thoughtful in their PR.
17/08/2010 08:12:20 PM
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yah, it sounds like the builders aren't being very thoughtful in their PR.
17/08/2010 08:12:21 PM
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The crux is they can't HELP stirring "up the grief and pain of the past. "
18/08/2010 01:49:21 PM
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are you serious?
17/08/2010 08:01:01 PM
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Yes, I am...
17/08/2010 08:14:27 PM
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The point is your analogy does not hold
17/08/2010 08:19:29 PM
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Plus
17/08/2010 08:26:36 PM
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Re: Yes, I am...
17/08/2010 08:42:27 PM
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Aren't they?
17/08/2010 09:19:58 PM
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You may be interested in...
17/08/2010 09:23:48 PM
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*nods* So I was right....
17/08/2010 09:26:59 PM
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That is probably not fair
17/08/2010 11:12:22 PM
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I know!
18/08/2010 03:06:25 AM
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Using a touch of hyperbole, perhaps?
18/08/2010 10:18:36 AM
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I'm so proud of you for noticing!
18/08/2010 10:48:14 AM
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Just making sure you knew I wasn't mistaking your reply for a constructive one
18/08/2010 12:08:41 PM
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I give constuctive replies where they are due
18/08/2010 12:30:42 PM
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COMPLETELY unrelated point that I don't blame you for ignoring...
19/08/2010 04:25:31 AM
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you are right of course
17/08/2010 08:22:23 PM
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So, you're saying muslims should leave nyc to show their sensitivity, right?
17/08/2010 10:31:55 PM
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so your saying you always speak in over the top rhetoric?
18/08/2010 03:22:20 PM
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THANK YOU
18/08/2010 01:13:16 AM
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Take deep breaths..
18/08/2010 05:25:16 AM
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Typing a post didn't really require all that much effort
18/08/2010 06:13:15 AM
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There are more important things in the world to worry about
18/08/2010 08:51:35 AM
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I disagree, anger doesn't help in this debate, and it's only going to make things worse.
18/08/2010 10:56:30 AM
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So what, the Americans supporting this mosque are "arrogant European pricks"?
18/08/2010 10:12:51 AM
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Kind of a stretch for you to make that assumption
18/08/2010 11:31:16 AM
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I hadn't read that other exchange yet, it made more sense after that.
18/08/2010 12:35:18 PM
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My only real objection is the same old one over whether respect is an entitlement.
18/08/2010 02:21:19 PM
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A mosque was built in the Pentagon months after 9/11
18/08/2010 01:23:11 AM
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Here comes the "xenophobia card."
18/08/2010 01:27:50 AM
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Which is why there was a bombing at another mosque earlier this year
18/08/2010 01:31:51 AM
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I think a better parallel would be the new neighbors opening a pool store.
18/08/2010 01:40:42 PM
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A guy on CNN made a really good point about this
17/08/2010 08:46:54 PM
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That analogy really isn't better than Jeo's, and I would think worse. *NM*
17/08/2010 09:02:50 PM
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hmm yes but that black man hadn't killed his dog
17/08/2010 09:22:15 PM
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Re: hmm yes but that black man hadn't killed his dog
17/08/2010 10:32:24 PM
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Yeah this whole debate is pretty pointless to be completely honest
17/08/2010 10:28:13 PM
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well we have been shot at from enough mosque to make it hard to tell at times
18/08/2010 08:25:58 PM
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I think this whole debate has made American look bad.
17/08/2010 10:58:23 PM
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So what?
18/08/2010 12:28:40 AM
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Okay, so we're no longer the land of religous tolerance.
18/08/2010 04:09:24 AM
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Were we ever?
18/08/2010 04:18:16 AM
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I guess not.
18/08/2010 04:25:03 AM
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Re: I guess not.
18/08/2010 05:56:49 AM
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Re: I guess not.
18/08/2010 10:43:05 AM
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How does this work, do you only look bad to a bunch of ass wipes, or does anyone who thinks you look
18/08/2010 09:38:28 AM
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Olberman's Special Comment on this one hits the nail on the head
18/08/2010 01:29:45 AM
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love that the Olberman video, but Jon Stewart did an awesome job too. *NM*
18/08/2010 01:32:59 AM
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Olbermann and Stewart are possibly the two best people alive *NM*
18/08/2010 02:39:48 AM
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they make the top of my list for people I wnat to catch an STD *NM*
18/08/2010 08:27:27 PM
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Let me just say...
18/08/2010 09:20:38 PM
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Re: Let me just say...
18/08/2010 09:22:12 PM
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I didn't watch that particular video, so maybe, yeah. *NM*
18/08/2010 10:11:22 PM
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I used to be so Idealistic to think this was AMERICA.
18/08/2010 01:44:38 AM
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the key phrase is "congress shall make no law...."
18/08/2010 02:23:53 AM
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14th ammendment changed that *NM*
18/08/2010 04:51:08 AM
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14th ammendment established a state religion?
18/08/2010 08:14:11 AM
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No, but the Equal Protection Clause extended much of the BoR to the states.
18/08/2010 02:50:31 PM
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did you go the the Huffington Post school of law?
18/08/2010 03:29:14 PM
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No, but I've spent more time around lawyers than I care to admit.
18/08/2010 03:45:36 PM
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The connection is inevitable and, I think, deliberate.
18/08/2010 01:15:41 PM
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Hmm
18/08/2010 02:26:17 PM
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Bottom line is it may be in everyones interest to DISassociate Islam from 911.
18/08/2010 02:58:17 PM
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No, bottom line is people need to be able to keep to thoughts in their brains at any given time *NM*
18/08/2010 03:31:03 PM
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You mean retain both "I want to promote Islam" AND "Dude, Ground Zero is right THERE! *points*"
18/08/2010 03:36:34 PM
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How long ago were the Crusades?
18/08/2010 03:48:53 PM
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Re: How long ago were the Crusades?
18/08/2010 03:52:23 PM
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So wait...
18/08/2010 04:09:10 PM
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Yes, Jerodam. Christians are good. All the rest are bad. I see it now.
18/08/2010 04:10:47 PM
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Stop freaking out Camilla. You are such a drama queen some times.
18/08/2010 04:15:06 PM
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That is not drama. That is fed up. *NM*
18/08/2010 04:16:32 PM
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You're not the only one who is fed up....
18/08/2010 04:24:27 PM
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*giggle*
18/08/2010 04:29:03 PM
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This may be nitpicking, but I'll do it anyway because it's a widespread misconception...
18/08/2010 04:30:20 PM
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I agreed with you at first - thought your first post was pretty insightful.
18/08/2010 05:46:02 PM
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The Crusades were by Christendom as a whole*, 9-11 isn't similar for Islam by some way
18/08/2010 04:04:54 PM
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Re: The Crusades were by Christendom as a whole*, 9-11 isn't similar for Islam by some way
18/08/2010 04:11:34 PM
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Some people will always wonder about such things; we're still accused of "Crusading" today.
18/08/2010 04:07:02 PM
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I don't disagree about the outreach, as such, but a remark...
18/08/2010 04:37:52 PM
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It's as much a local issue as the theme park Disney wanted to build at Gettysburg.
19/08/2010 03:15:03 PM
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A bit more background information
18/08/2010 05:30:04 PM
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That's informative, thanks, but I'm not sure it really changes anything.
19/08/2010 03:27:05 PM
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Step One: Manufacture controversey by means of misinformation (i.e. Mosque at Ground Zero)
19/08/2010 06:40:49 PM
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Can I just say...
19/08/2010 01:45:38 AM
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Roughly 2 football fields, yes. And around a corner
19/08/2010 03:17:24 PM
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Two hundred yards is nothing.
19/08/2010 04:44:34 PM
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Sure it is - it's two large city blocks
19/08/2010 05:15:46 PM
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It's two fairly average city blocks, and not even that some places.
21/08/2010 06:07:33 PM
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