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Actually, you didn't read my post MalkierKnight Send a noteboard - 12/08/2010 09:23:54 PM
As Sareitha points out, I am firmly of the opinion that the State should provide for the marriage of all consenting adults of all orientations.

I am also firmly of the opinion that the State should keep its legislation out of private institutions - homes, churches, clubs, etc - unless what is happening there causes harm to people or their property.

My church will not marry (perform the ceremony for) people who are not members of the church. My church will not marry a Christian to a non-Christian (my husband is an athiest; we got married in the state church of England but I go to a Free Church of Scotland congregation). And my church will not perform weddings for homosexuals. All of those things are based on our reading of the Bible.

BUT: let me reiterate: I believe the State has a duty to provide marriage for all consenting adults of all orientations. Just the State should not force churches to perform those marriages which do not agree with their doctrine.

Is that clear enough for you?


Maybe it's because I'm not clear enough. I believe that IN ADDITION to having a secular, state oriented marriage for all consenting adults, private institutions like churches ought not be allowed to ban gay marriage.

It seems like you're not from the US so my points may not apply, but this post was directed at America. There are clear legal grounds for government interfering with private institutions. If there weren't, we'd still have segregation.

My point is that banning gay marriage on a religious level amounts to discrimination because gay marriage does not alter the essence of a religion.
You must unlearn what you have learned.
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Gay Marriage MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:23:19 AM 1839 Views
I disagree on the latter part snoopcester - 12/08/2010 12:04:15 PM 1213 Views
I follow your point... MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 12:14:17 PM 1198 Views
Suspect you would find plenty of denominations that would argue with you rather strenuously. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 12:24:55 PM 1193 Views
See, that's what I'm saying... MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:37:26 PM 1157 Views
She didn't say that gays ought not be married. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 07:45:37 PM 1013 Views
You didn't read my post. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:10:21 PM 1070 Views
Actually, you didn't read my post MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:23:54 PM 1111 Views
Um, you're wrong. Phelix - 12/08/2010 09:37:13 PM 1120 Views
Re: Um, you're wrong. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:44:17 PM 1076 Views
Boy Scouts of America v. Dale. And no, he described it accurately. *NM* Legolas - 12/08/2010 09:53:31 PM 565 Views
You're still wrong. Phelix - 12/08/2010 09:54:55 PM 1214 Views
Re: You're still wrong. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:58:26 PM 1069 Views
Again, you are still wrong. Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:04:42 PM 1119 Views
Re: Again, you are still wrong. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:17:13 PM 967 Views
Wrong definition of "club" Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:30:52 PM 1214 Views
My clubs are cooler than yours. *NM* Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:35:13 PM 579 Views
I play golf with mine. *NM* Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:43:01 PM 590 Views
Re: Wrong definition of "club" MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:40:55 PM 1122 Views
Are you a member of one of those churches? Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:44:12 PM 1136 Views
Also also: Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:46:05 PM 1147 Views
Re: Are you a member of one of those churches? MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:49:44 PM 1048 Views
Re: Wrong definition of "club" Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:47:20 PM 1155 Views
I don't think he means that kind of club. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:31:41 PM 1032 Views
Also MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:02:44 PM 1163 Views
And wrong again. Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:08:24 PM 1186 Views
Not so quick! MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:21:31 PM 1023 Views
Yes, so quick! Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:32:13 PM 972 Views
Let's be reasonable here MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:41:53 PM 1080 Views
Why do you get to judge? Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:48:57 PM 1107 Views
I don't MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:53:21 PM 1000 Views
OK. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:58:22 PM 1115 Views
Re: OK. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 11:03:50 PM 1044 Views
Here's the thing: your opinion seems to be informed by the Roman Catholic Faith. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 11:14:03 PM 1009 Views
Re: Here's the thing: your opinion seems to be informed by the Roman Catholic Faith. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 11:23:35 PM 1124 Views
Then please stop. Phelix - 12/08/2010 11:01:05 PM 1082 Views
What's wrong with discussion? MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 11:05:48 PM 1021 Views
Discussion? Nothing. Your assertions about other people's views, something. Phelix - 12/08/2010 11:09:48 PM 1052 Views
Really? MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 11:13:46 PM 1079 Views
Yes. That is incorrect. Phelix - 12/08/2010 11:18:05 PM 1041 Views
What, because the expressive message of scouting is anti-gay? Legolas - 12/08/2010 10:12:54 PM 922 Views
Re: What, because the expressive message of scouting is anti-gay? MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:23:36 PM 1070 Views
Well then that brings us back to my question, which you have yet to answer. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 10:36:48 PM 1027 Views
Re: Well then that brings us back to my question, which you have yet to answer. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:46:22 PM 1138 Views
Apparently you do believe that you are more qualified Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 10:57:00 PM 1012 Views
You are wrong MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 11:11:37 PM 860 Views
Really? Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 11:19:10 PM 953 Views
Not entirely true either... or, well, true as far as Brown goes. Legolas - 12/08/2010 10:08:42 PM 1035 Views
Heh... we discuss restaurants a post or two over there.. ---> Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:10:26 PM 1130 Views
Actually, I did. And since everyone else told you you're wrong about that I didn't see any need Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:38:33 PM 1108 Views
Re: Actually, I did. And since everyone else told you you're wrong about that I didn't see any need MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:55:05 PM 1043 Views
Gah. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:59:45 PM 992 Views
Yes yes yes. It was ungracious. I got bored. *NM* Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:03:17 PM 542 Views
What a mature response. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:11:00 PM 1177 Views
Yes. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:21:38 PM 1114 Views
Re: Yes. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:35:51 PM 1060 Views
I can't speak for Rebekah, but I don't think the issue is that your points are invalid per se. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 10:22:30 PM 1016 Views
I think my point was unclear in that post MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:55:34 PM 1084 Views
It seems that by your (to me nebulous) definition Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 11:05:01 PM 1087 Views
Re: I think my point was unclear in that post Camilla - 13/08/2010 10:58:28 AM 995 Views
+1 Camilla - 13/08/2010 09:16:24 AM 879 Views
Hehe Camilla - 13/08/2010 10:46:25 AM 932 Views
Um Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 09:46:43 PM 1142 Views
That's a very good question. *NM* Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:49:05 PM 533 Views
So good it doesn't even need an answer, apparently *NM* Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 10:26:41 PM 575 Views
So good I responded to it someplace else. *NM* MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:56:05 PM 468 Views
It makes no sense Camilla - 12/08/2010 04:29:24 PM 981 Views
Re: It makes no sense MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:39:25 PM 1055 Views
Re: It makes no sense Camilla - 12/08/2010 07:41:02 PM 1133 Views
It's not sanctioning anything MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:25:44 PM 1084 Views
Re: It's not sanctioning anything Camilla - 12/08/2010 09:28:45 PM 1053 Views
Nonsense snoopcester - 12/08/2010 09:35:25 PM 1006 Views
Yes, but while marrying two murderers does not ensure that they will continue to murder... Kronin al'Sulc - 12/08/2010 09:08:53 PM 971 Views
Re: Yes, but while marrying two murderers does not ensure that they will continue to murder... MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:42:21 PM 1085 Views
Suspect you've not read that either. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:43:32 PM 1018 Views
What other church sanctioned circumstances encourage continued sin? Phelix - 12/08/2010 09:45:33 PM 1142 Views
Infant baptism, obviously. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 09:51:48 PM 1133 Views
*NM* Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:53:17 PM 379 Views
*groan* I forgot that one! Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:09:07 PM 1088 Views
Re: What other church sanctioned circumstances encourage continued sin? Camilla - 13/08/2010 11:04:02 AM 1077 Views
Wow, it's almost like an entire denomination believes that! *NM* Ghavrel - 13/08/2010 03:41:07 PM 518 Views
really? Camilla - 13/08/2010 03:42:42 PM 954 Views
Camilla - 13/08/2010 03:43:26 PM 880 Views
Yeah, that's the Roman Catholic basis against masturbation and contraception. *NM* Ghavrel - 13/08/2010 04:12:00 PM 517 Views
Yes Camilla - 13/08/2010 04:22:58 PM 930 Views
Which is interesting Sareitha Sedai - 13/08/2010 04:28:09 PM 914 Views
Yes Camilla - 13/08/2010 04:29:25 PM 898 Views
Original poster. *NM* Rebekah - 13/08/2010 04:32:18 PM 571 Views
Camilla - 13/08/2010 04:34:30 PM 924 Views
Dude....please at least have a working knowledge of the Bible before you spout off. Jeordam - 12/08/2010 10:47:13 PM 961 Views
I like the part in 1 Corinthians (is it chapter 6?) Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:49:55 PM 858 Views
Ya know?!? Jeordam - 12/08/2010 10:55:27 PM 968 Views
I'm not sure you're correct there. Tom - 12/08/2010 04:33:02 PM 1075 Views
Re: I'm not sure you're correct there. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:40:16 PM 1089 Views
There is a difference... Dannymac - 12/08/2010 09:02:20 PM 1122 Views
No you don't. snoopcester - 12/08/2010 09:16:52 PM 1102 Views
That's another concern Isaac - 12/08/2010 12:39:53 PM 1166 Views
Not quite my point snoopcester - 12/08/2010 09:19:50 PM 1027 Views
secular marriage is decoupled from religious marriage random thoughts - 12/08/2010 02:50:43 PM 1154 Views
Simple, require the legal and religious marriage to be performed separately. Legolas - 12/08/2010 02:58:43 PM 989 Views
And they are, in fact, separate right now in the US. They're just called the same thing. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 03:29:26 PM 1036 Views
It's not the same name that's confusing so much as the single ceremony. Or so it seems to me. Legolas - 12/08/2010 03:37:20 PM 1045 Views
I disagree. I think giving the legal institution the same name as the sacrament is the problem. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 03:59:43 PM 1061 Views
What in the world would that accomplish? random thoughts - 12/08/2010 03:44:32 PM 1074 Views
Provide some much-needed clarity, evidently. Legolas - 12/08/2010 03:49:33 PM 925 Views
the problem is it would be changing a centuries old tradition.. random thoughts - 12/08/2010 04:26:47 PM 936 Views
heheheheheheheHAHAHAHEHEHehehehehahheeh*cough* Camilla - 12/08/2010 04:55:09 PM 943 Views
thats OK I am sure you will get over it random thoughts - 12/08/2010 05:22:08 PM 978 Views
Just guessing, but I think it was the "centuries old tradition" that set off the giggle fit. Phelix - 12/08/2010 07:25:38 PM 1100 Views
Really? I was hoping for something better random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:06:00 PM 1032 Views
So government recognition makes your religion meaningful? Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:11:54 PM 1121 Views
not my religion I'm agnostic random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:34:40 PM 981 Views
OK, but the point remains the same. Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:51:59 PM 1095 Views
Of course it would random thoughts - 12/08/2010 11:10:03 PM 1168 Views
I'm not far left, thank you very much. *NM* Legolas - 12/08/2010 10:20:31 PM 589 Views
no but your are European and that slants your views *NM* random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:36:01 PM 580 Views
Sure, but in this case it has little to do with left or right. Legolas - 12/08/2010 10:40:42 PM 1039 Views
that is what I said when I metioned you were European *NM* random thoughts - 12/08/2010 11:11:31 PM 581 Views
Simples snoopcester - 12/08/2010 09:30:31 PM 1065 Views
there are about 140 post ranging from boyscouts to infant babtism random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:57:46 PM 1060 Views
So. snoopcester - 14/08/2010 01:27:59 AM 899 Views
sorry I responded I forgot what a tool you are. my bad random thoughts - 14/08/2010 02:48:57 AM 1418 Views
You spout some utter gibberish then dish out insults when called on it? Very funny snoopcester - 15/08/2010 12:47:04 PM 1246 Views
Agreed *NM* Camilla - 12/08/2010 03:45:04 PM 467 Views
I love you, Camilla lyringlas - 12/08/2010 04:02:15 PM 861 Views
Re: I love you, Camilla Camilla - 12/08/2010 04:04:10 PM 1053 Views
Is there an all above option? *NM* lyringlas - 12/08/2010 04:23:24 PM 622 Views
Naturally. Camilla - 12/08/2010 04:25:14 PM 1040 Views
I know I do *NM* LadyLorraine - 12/08/2010 05:17:35 PM 546 Views
Another thing MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:42:21 PM 1127 Views
A couple of things SilverWarder - 12/08/2010 12:58:09 PM 1033 Views
I disagree MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:47:26 PM 1153 Views
Well, you're within your rights to certainly SilverWarder - 12/08/2010 08:24:30 PM 1125 Views
there is major flaw in your argument random thoughts - 12/08/2010 03:31:45 PM 1169 Views
Re: there is major flaw in your argument lyringlas - 12/08/2010 04:01:32 PM 1053 Views
I should clarify that I support gay marriage random thoughts - 12/08/2010 05:20:36 PM 989 Views
One point about Prop. 8 Phelix - 12/08/2010 07:38:55 PM 1032 Views
I know that is the commonl;y held belief but I thinkit is wrong random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:32:58 PM 954 Views
Religious institutions, though, pushed hard to pass it. Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:42:33 PM 1041 Views
that doesn’t translate into people voting for religious reasons random thoughts - 12/08/2010 11:19:48 PM 861 Views
Bigotry and Fear that are supported and encouraged by religious institutions. Phelix - 12/08/2010 11:32:30 PM 1019 Views
there are major flaws in your argument MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:51:52 PM 1130 Views
Women can't be priests in the Catholic church. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 08:00:24 PM 810 Views
Hehe. You beat me by 6 seconds. *NM* Camilla - 12/08/2010 08:03:28 PM 497 Views
Great minds and all. *NM* Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 08:06:01 PM 502 Views
I was writing a reply to this post... lyringlas - 12/08/2010 03:51:01 PM 1056 Views
I feel your pain *NM* MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:52:28 PM 581 Views
Forcing religious institutions to marry gay couples is hideously unconstitutional. Tom - 12/08/2010 04:18:59 PM 1079 Views
100% agreed. LadyLorraine - 12/08/2010 05:05:35 PM 1134 Views
This. *NM* Ghavrel - 12/08/2010 07:36:57 PM 426 Views
You are absolutely wrong MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:57:19 PM 1073 Views
By that token Camilla - 12/08/2010 08:00:30 PM 955 Views
My God.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:49:18 PM 1023 Views
no You are absolutely wrong random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:08:57 PM 963 Views
Well, that was horrifyingly stupid. Ghavrel - 13/08/2010 12:57:46 AM 1046 Views
Your arguments are so specious and stupid I don't know where to begin. Tom - 13/08/2010 05:04:17 AM 994 Views
I am a Christian who wholeheartedly supports Gay Marriage. Seriana Sedai - 12/08/2010 06:49:28 PM 1157 Views
Fair enough. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 08:01:37 PM 1090 Views
Why do people equate.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 07:11:15 PM 989 Views
Because "homophobic", like "xenophobic", has shifted a bit in meaning... Legolas - 12/08/2010 07:33:56 PM 1071 Views
So then.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 07:39:24 PM 997 Views
Well, strongly anti-gay, yes. Legolas - 12/08/2010 07:43:40 PM 846 Views
Homophobic is generally "anti-gay" or "anti-queer"... Phelix - 12/08/2010 07:46:22 PM 1150 Views
Because your reasons for being against gay marriage are so specious *NM* MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:59:42 PM 597 Views
I particularly enjoy the implied assumption that your a good enough judge of my motivations. *NM* Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:24:14 PM 564 Views
Re: Why do people equate.... Sidious - 12/08/2010 08:04:24 PM 1143 Views
+1 Camilla - 12/08/2010 08:06:19 PM 1180 Views
Stop with the pile on Camilla. Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:22:35 PM 1106 Views
You would have said nothing if I had just said "agreed" Camilla - 12/08/2010 09:27:33 PM 930 Views
Which speaks highly of you.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:36:30 PM 1107 Views
This is being very petty. *NM* Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:41:26 PM 552 Views
As opposed to a snarky +1 comment? *NM* Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:45:02 PM 571 Views
It's not snarky. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:47:47 PM 1045 Views
Its a +1 shorthand comment... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:52:04 PM 1333 Views
Wow. Those two characters allowed you to read Camilla's motivations? Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:54:25 PM 961 Views
*shrug* Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:58:42 PM 1168 Views
Yes, I am terribly selfish Camilla - 13/08/2010 09:10:54 AM 952 Views
Re: Why do people equate.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:13:07 PM 1143 Views
Re: Why do people equate.... Camilla - 12/08/2010 09:26:41 PM 1051 Views
LOL Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:42:32 PM 1023 Views
Re: LOL Camilla - 13/08/2010 09:12:29 AM 969 Views
you are exactly why the state needs to make a clear seperation between the secular and religious snoopcester - 12/08/2010 09:33:22 PM 1020 Views
Ok, so if the state does then... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:44:31 PM 961 Views
No, marriage started because of property. Phelix - 12/08/2010 09:59:14 PM 1055 Views
So then two things come to mind... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 10:04:39 PM 1033 Views
Only two? Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:27:08 PM 1030 Views
Is this the same guy... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 10:43:02 PM 942 Views
I thought the cow died in an accident, but yes... that guy. Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:58:46 PM 1013 Views
That's a little difficult to do SilverWarder - 13/08/2010 03:19:32 PM 1189 Views
Re: That's a little difficult to do Camilla - 13/08/2010 03:30:14 PM 1060 Views
Oh, I hope not SilverWarder - 13/08/2010 04:19:47 PM 1058 Views
I may be wrong Camilla - 13/08/2010 04:24:28 PM 1012 Views
Property isn't just agricultural. Phelix - 13/08/2010 06:11:12 PM 940 Views
True enough SilverWarder - 16/08/2010 03:12:31 PM 1255 Views
yes but about half of the old testament deals with protecting those rights random thoughts - 13/08/2010 05:16:09 PM 1019 Views
The relationship between religion and rain go even farther back... Phelix - 13/08/2010 06:15:32 PM 1005 Views
to me it is a beside the point when it comes to the law random thoughts - 13/08/2010 06:25:50 PM 1031 Views
moot, not mute Camilla - 13/08/2010 08:48:04 PM 1256 Views
damn random thoughts - 13/08/2010 08:52:23 PM 1100 Views
Actually, I agree with that snoopcester - 12/08/2010 10:01:37 PM 908 Views
See, now this, I could deal with.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 10:06:15 PM 905 Views
So is it that you are hung up on the name then? SilverWarder - 13/08/2010 03:29:02 PM 973 Views
Rights.... Phelix - 12/08/2010 09:34:45 PM 993 Views
See, what I don't get is why gay people care about jh - 12/08/2010 08:18:45 PM 1016 Views
It's mostly about getting married in the eyes of the state. Phelix - 12/08/2010 08:42:52 PM 1131 Views
I'm fairly sure Jonte was referring only to the "churches have to accept gay marriages" bit. *NM* Legolas - 12/08/2010 08:44:52 PM 601 Views
Hmmm... Then I shall reply to that part here. Phelix - 12/08/2010 08:50:10 PM 1130 Views
Oh, so it is an american thing, then. *NM* jh - 14/08/2010 08:58:28 AM 543 Views
Starting again Camilla - 12/08/2010 08:23:08 PM 1104 Views
Not at all MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:58:45 PM 1040 Views
Re: Not at all Camilla - 13/08/2010 09:14:48 AM 837 Views
Agreed *NM* snoopcester - 13/08/2010 10:21:06 AM 437 Views
Oh dear Camilla - 13/08/2010 10:30:45 AM 952 Views
But what if I like being selfish and evil? *NM* snoopcester - 13/08/2010 11:25:01 AM 567 Views
Well, being English might help you get away with it Camilla - 13/08/2010 11:26:17 AM 831 Views
I'm curious Sareitha Sedai - 13/08/2010 01:49:15 PM 1000 Views
Camilla - 13/08/2010 01:54:19 PM 889 Views
Okay, good. Sareitha Sedai - 13/08/2010 01:58:14 PM 1061 Views
I suppose you also think that religious Pacifists should be eligible for the draft? Dannymac - 12/08/2010 08:42:21 PM 1113 Views
very nicely said *NM* random thoughts - 13/08/2010 02:16:53 PM 451 Views
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