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I disagree. I think giving the legal institution the same name as the sacrament is the problem. Sareitha Sedai Send a noteboard - 12/08/2010 03:59:43 PM
Whether there is a wedding or not, whether there is a priest or not, there is a license that must be applied for, signed by a recognized authority, and filed in order for the union to be legally recognized. People who have church weddings are already doing both things (participating in the sacrament and filing the legal document), and people who don't have church weddings are only doing one of them.

And the fact that those who have a religious marriage have a priest pronounce the magical words, instead of the legal authorities, rather than having him do so *in addition* to the legal authorities.


I don't think it should matter who says the magic words :P or that religious officials should not have the same ability as civil officials to obtain that authority. Unless we also make it so that Elvis impersonators or other costumed interpreters can't say the magic words either, my point being that couples who have been granted a license to marry (have their legal union recognized by the state) have a great deal of choice in who they have perform the actual ceremony. It's not a violation of separation of church and state IMO unless the state requires the involvement of a religious official or requires religious officials to perform the ceremony against the dictates of their church (as suggested in the OP).
If you are from Betelgeuse, please have one of your Earth friends read what I've written before you respond. Or try concentrating harder.

"The trophy problem has become extreme."
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Gay Marriage MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:23:19 AM 1835 Views
I disagree on the latter part snoopcester - 12/08/2010 12:04:15 PM 1211 Views
I follow your point... MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 12:14:17 PM 1193 Views
Suspect you would find plenty of denominations that would argue with you rather strenuously. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 12:24:55 PM 1190 Views
See, that's what I'm saying... MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:37:26 PM 1153 Views
She didn't say that gays ought not be married. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 07:45:37 PM 1011 Views
You didn't read my post. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:10:21 PM 1066 Views
Actually, you didn't read my post MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:23:54 PM 1107 Views
Um, you're wrong. Phelix - 12/08/2010 09:37:13 PM 1116 Views
Re: Um, you're wrong. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:44:17 PM 1074 Views
Boy Scouts of America v. Dale. And no, he described it accurately. *NM* Legolas - 12/08/2010 09:53:31 PM 564 Views
You're still wrong. Phelix - 12/08/2010 09:54:55 PM 1210 Views
Re: You're still wrong. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:58:26 PM 1066 Views
Again, you are still wrong. Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:04:42 PM 1114 Views
Re: Again, you are still wrong. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:17:13 PM 964 Views
Wrong definition of "club" Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:30:52 PM 1212 Views
My clubs are cooler than yours. *NM* Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:35:13 PM 578 Views
I play golf with mine. *NM* Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:43:01 PM 589 Views
Re: Wrong definition of "club" MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:40:55 PM 1118 Views
Are you a member of one of those churches? Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:44:12 PM 1134 Views
Also also: Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:46:05 PM 1143 Views
Re: Are you a member of one of those churches? MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:49:44 PM 1047 Views
Re: Wrong definition of "club" Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:47:20 PM 1153 Views
I don't think he means that kind of club. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:31:41 PM 1027 Views
Also MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:02:44 PM 1160 Views
And wrong again. Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:08:24 PM 1183 Views
Not so quick! MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:21:31 PM 1020 Views
Yes, so quick! Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:32:13 PM 967 Views
Let's be reasonable here MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:41:53 PM 1078 Views
Why do you get to judge? Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:48:57 PM 1104 Views
I don't MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:53:21 PM 998 Views
OK. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:58:22 PM 1112 Views
Re: OK. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 11:03:50 PM 1042 Views
Here's the thing: your opinion seems to be informed by the Roman Catholic Faith. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 11:14:03 PM 1006 Views
Re: Here's the thing: your opinion seems to be informed by the Roman Catholic Faith. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 11:23:35 PM 1122 Views
Then please stop. Phelix - 12/08/2010 11:01:05 PM 1081 Views
What's wrong with discussion? MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 11:05:48 PM 1019 Views
Discussion? Nothing. Your assertions about other people's views, something. Phelix - 12/08/2010 11:09:48 PM 1047 Views
Really? MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 11:13:46 PM 1077 Views
Yes. That is incorrect. Phelix - 12/08/2010 11:18:05 PM 1040 Views
What, because the expressive message of scouting is anti-gay? Legolas - 12/08/2010 10:12:54 PM 920 Views
Re: What, because the expressive message of scouting is anti-gay? MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:23:36 PM 1066 Views
Well then that brings us back to my question, which you have yet to answer. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 10:36:48 PM 1022 Views
Re: Well then that brings us back to my question, which you have yet to answer. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:46:22 PM 1137 Views
Apparently you do believe that you are more qualified Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 10:57:00 PM 1010 Views
You are wrong MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 11:11:37 PM 858 Views
Really? Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 11:19:10 PM 948 Views
Not entirely true either... or, well, true as far as Brown goes. Legolas - 12/08/2010 10:08:42 PM 1032 Views
Heh... we discuss restaurants a post or two over there.. ---> Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:10:26 PM 1127 Views
Actually, I did. And since everyone else told you you're wrong about that I didn't see any need Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:38:33 PM 1105 Views
Re: Actually, I did. And since everyone else told you you're wrong about that I didn't see any need MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:55:05 PM 1039 Views
Gah. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:59:45 PM 989 Views
Yes yes yes. It was ungracious. I got bored. *NM* Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:03:17 PM 541 Views
What a mature response. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:11:00 PM 1173 Views
Yes. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:21:38 PM 1112 Views
Re: Yes. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:35:51 PM 1055 Views
I can't speak for Rebekah, but I don't think the issue is that your points are invalid per se. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 10:22:30 PM 1011 Views
I think my point was unclear in that post MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:55:34 PM 1082 Views
It seems that by your (to me nebulous) definition Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 11:05:01 PM 1085 Views
Re: I think my point was unclear in that post Camilla - 13/08/2010 10:58:28 AM 990 Views
+1 Camilla - 13/08/2010 09:16:24 AM 877 Views
Hehe Camilla - 13/08/2010 10:46:25 AM 931 Views
Um Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 09:46:43 PM 1139 Views
That's a very good question. *NM* Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:49:05 PM 532 Views
So good it doesn't even need an answer, apparently *NM* Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 10:26:41 PM 574 Views
So good I responded to it someplace else. *NM* MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:56:05 PM 468 Views
It makes no sense Camilla - 12/08/2010 04:29:24 PM 975 Views
Re: It makes no sense MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:39:25 PM 1054 Views
Re: It makes no sense Camilla - 12/08/2010 07:41:02 PM 1130 Views
It's not sanctioning anything MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:25:44 PM 1082 Views
Re: It's not sanctioning anything Camilla - 12/08/2010 09:28:45 PM 1051 Views
Nonsense snoopcester - 12/08/2010 09:35:25 PM 1004 Views
Yes, but while marrying two murderers does not ensure that they will continue to murder... Kronin al'Sulc - 12/08/2010 09:08:53 PM 968 Views
Re: Yes, but while marrying two murderers does not ensure that they will continue to murder... MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:42:21 PM 1084 Views
Suspect you've not read that either. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:43:32 PM 1014 Views
What other church sanctioned circumstances encourage continued sin? Phelix - 12/08/2010 09:45:33 PM 1138 Views
Infant baptism, obviously. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 09:51:48 PM 1130 Views
*NM* Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:53:17 PM 378 Views
*groan* I forgot that one! Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:09:07 PM 1084 Views
Re: What other church sanctioned circumstances encourage continued sin? Camilla - 13/08/2010 11:04:02 AM 1074 Views
Wow, it's almost like an entire denomination believes that! *NM* Ghavrel - 13/08/2010 03:41:07 PM 517 Views
really? Camilla - 13/08/2010 03:42:42 PM 948 Views
Camilla - 13/08/2010 03:43:26 PM 879 Views
Yeah, that's the Roman Catholic basis against masturbation and contraception. *NM* Ghavrel - 13/08/2010 04:12:00 PM 516 Views
Yes Camilla - 13/08/2010 04:22:58 PM 927 Views
Which is interesting Sareitha Sedai - 13/08/2010 04:28:09 PM 913 Views
Yes Camilla - 13/08/2010 04:29:25 PM 895 Views
Original poster. *NM* Rebekah - 13/08/2010 04:32:18 PM 570 Views
Camilla - 13/08/2010 04:34:30 PM 922 Views
Dude....please at least have a working knowledge of the Bible before you spout off. Jeordam - 12/08/2010 10:47:13 PM 960 Views
I like the part in 1 Corinthians (is it chapter 6?) Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:49:55 PM 856 Views
Ya know?!? Jeordam - 12/08/2010 10:55:27 PM 967 Views
I'm not sure you're correct there. Tom - 12/08/2010 04:33:02 PM 1073 Views
Re: I'm not sure you're correct there. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:40:16 PM 1086 Views
There is a difference... Dannymac - 12/08/2010 09:02:20 PM 1120 Views
No you don't. snoopcester - 12/08/2010 09:16:52 PM 1101 Views
That's another concern Isaac - 12/08/2010 12:39:53 PM 1163 Views
Not quite my point snoopcester - 12/08/2010 09:19:50 PM 1025 Views
secular marriage is decoupled from religious marriage random thoughts - 12/08/2010 02:50:43 PM 1151 Views
Simple, require the legal and religious marriage to be performed separately. Legolas - 12/08/2010 02:58:43 PM 986 Views
And they are, in fact, separate right now in the US. They're just called the same thing. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 03:29:26 PM 1034 Views
It's not the same name that's confusing so much as the single ceremony. Or so it seems to me. Legolas - 12/08/2010 03:37:20 PM 1044 Views
I disagree. I think giving the legal institution the same name as the sacrament is the problem. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 03:59:43 PM 1057 Views
What in the world would that accomplish? random thoughts - 12/08/2010 03:44:32 PM 1070 Views
Provide some much-needed clarity, evidently. Legolas - 12/08/2010 03:49:33 PM 920 Views
the problem is it would be changing a centuries old tradition.. random thoughts - 12/08/2010 04:26:47 PM 931 Views
heheheheheheheHAHAHAHEHEHehehehehahheeh*cough* Camilla - 12/08/2010 04:55:09 PM 939 Views
thats OK I am sure you will get over it random thoughts - 12/08/2010 05:22:08 PM 976 Views
Just guessing, but I think it was the "centuries old tradition" that set off the giggle fit. Phelix - 12/08/2010 07:25:38 PM 1099 Views
Really? I was hoping for something better random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:06:00 PM 1030 Views
So government recognition makes your religion meaningful? Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:11:54 PM 1117 Views
not my religion I'm agnostic random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:34:40 PM 979 Views
OK, but the point remains the same. Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:51:59 PM 1091 Views
Of course it would random thoughts - 12/08/2010 11:10:03 PM 1165 Views
I'm not far left, thank you very much. *NM* Legolas - 12/08/2010 10:20:31 PM 588 Views
no but your are European and that slants your views *NM* random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:36:01 PM 579 Views
Sure, but in this case it has little to do with left or right. Legolas - 12/08/2010 10:40:42 PM 1036 Views
that is what I said when I metioned you were European *NM* random thoughts - 12/08/2010 11:11:31 PM 580 Views
Simples snoopcester - 12/08/2010 09:30:31 PM 1061 Views
there are about 140 post ranging from boyscouts to infant babtism random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:57:46 PM 1058 Views
So. snoopcester - 14/08/2010 01:27:59 AM 897 Views
sorry I responded I forgot what a tool you are. my bad random thoughts - 14/08/2010 02:48:57 AM 1415 Views
You spout some utter gibberish then dish out insults when called on it? Very funny snoopcester - 15/08/2010 12:47:04 PM 1241 Views
Agreed *NM* Camilla - 12/08/2010 03:45:04 PM 466 Views
I love you, Camilla lyringlas - 12/08/2010 04:02:15 PM 859 Views
Re: I love you, Camilla Camilla - 12/08/2010 04:04:10 PM 1049 Views
Is there an all above option? *NM* lyringlas - 12/08/2010 04:23:24 PM 621 Views
Naturally. Camilla - 12/08/2010 04:25:14 PM 1039 Views
I know I do *NM* LadyLorraine - 12/08/2010 05:17:35 PM 545 Views
Another thing MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:42:21 PM 1126 Views
A couple of things SilverWarder - 12/08/2010 12:58:09 PM 1029 Views
I disagree MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:47:26 PM 1150 Views
Well, you're within your rights to certainly SilverWarder - 12/08/2010 08:24:30 PM 1123 Views
there is major flaw in your argument random thoughts - 12/08/2010 03:31:45 PM 1165 Views
Re: there is major flaw in your argument lyringlas - 12/08/2010 04:01:32 PM 1050 Views
I should clarify that I support gay marriage random thoughts - 12/08/2010 05:20:36 PM 986 Views
One point about Prop. 8 Phelix - 12/08/2010 07:38:55 PM 1029 Views
I know that is the commonl;y held belief but I thinkit is wrong random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:32:58 PM 951 Views
Religious institutions, though, pushed hard to pass it. Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:42:33 PM 1037 Views
that doesn’t translate into people voting for religious reasons random thoughts - 12/08/2010 11:19:48 PM 858 Views
Bigotry and Fear that are supported and encouraged by religious institutions. Phelix - 12/08/2010 11:32:30 PM 1018 Views
there are major flaws in your argument MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:51:52 PM 1127 Views
Women can't be priests in the Catholic church. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 08:00:24 PM 808 Views
Hehe. You beat me by 6 seconds. *NM* Camilla - 12/08/2010 08:03:28 PM 496 Views
Great minds and all. *NM* Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 08:06:01 PM 501 Views
I was writing a reply to this post... lyringlas - 12/08/2010 03:51:01 PM 1052 Views
I feel your pain *NM* MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:52:28 PM 580 Views
Forcing religious institutions to marry gay couples is hideously unconstitutional. Tom - 12/08/2010 04:18:59 PM 1076 Views
100% agreed. LadyLorraine - 12/08/2010 05:05:35 PM 1132 Views
This. *NM* Ghavrel - 12/08/2010 07:36:57 PM 424 Views
You are absolutely wrong MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:57:19 PM 1072 Views
By that token Camilla - 12/08/2010 08:00:30 PM 951 Views
My God.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:49:18 PM 1019 Views
no You are absolutely wrong random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:08:57 PM 959 Views
Well, that was horrifyingly stupid. Ghavrel - 13/08/2010 12:57:46 AM 1042 Views
Your arguments are so specious and stupid I don't know where to begin. Tom - 13/08/2010 05:04:17 AM 989 Views
I am a Christian who wholeheartedly supports Gay Marriage. Seriana Sedai - 12/08/2010 06:49:28 PM 1156 Views
Fair enough. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 08:01:37 PM 1088 Views
Why do people equate.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 07:11:15 PM 986 Views
Because "homophobic", like "xenophobic", has shifted a bit in meaning... Legolas - 12/08/2010 07:33:56 PM 1068 Views
So then.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 07:39:24 PM 993 Views
Well, strongly anti-gay, yes. Legolas - 12/08/2010 07:43:40 PM 843 Views
Homophobic is generally "anti-gay" or "anti-queer"... Phelix - 12/08/2010 07:46:22 PM 1146 Views
Because your reasons for being against gay marriage are so specious *NM* MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:59:42 PM 596 Views
I particularly enjoy the implied assumption that your a good enough judge of my motivations. *NM* Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:24:14 PM 563 Views
Re: Why do people equate.... Sidious - 12/08/2010 08:04:24 PM 1139 Views
+1 Camilla - 12/08/2010 08:06:19 PM 1176 Views
Stop with the pile on Camilla. Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:22:35 PM 1104 Views
You would have said nothing if I had just said "agreed" Camilla - 12/08/2010 09:27:33 PM 926 Views
Which speaks highly of you.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:36:30 PM 1106 Views
This is being very petty. *NM* Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:41:26 PM 551 Views
As opposed to a snarky +1 comment? *NM* Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:45:02 PM 570 Views
It's not snarky. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:47:47 PM 1043 Views
Its a +1 shorthand comment... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:52:04 PM 1331 Views
Wow. Those two characters allowed you to read Camilla's motivations? Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:54:25 PM 959 Views
*shrug* Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:58:42 PM 1167 Views
Yes, I am terribly selfish Camilla - 13/08/2010 09:10:54 AM 947 Views
Re: Why do people equate.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:13:07 PM 1138 Views
Re: Why do people equate.... Camilla - 12/08/2010 09:26:41 PM 1046 Views
LOL Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:42:32 PM 1018 Views
Re: LOL Camilla - 13/08/2010 09:12:29 AM 966 Views
you are exactly why the state needs to make a clear seperation between the secular and religious snoopcester - 12/08/2010 09:33:22 PM 1017 Views
Ok, so if the state does then... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:44:31 PM 957 Views
No, marriage started because of property. Phelix - 12/08/2010 09:59:14 PM 1054 Views
So then two things come to mind... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 10:04:39 PM 1029 Views
Only two? Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:27:08 PM 1028 Views
Is this the same guy... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 10:43:02 PM 941 Views
I thought the cow died in an accident, but yes... that guy. Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:58:46 PM 1011 Views
That's a little difficult to do SilverWarder - 13/08/2010 03:19:32 PM 1186 Views
Re: That's a little difficult to do Camilla - 13/08/2010 03:30:14 PM 1056 Views
Oh, I hope not SilverWarder - 13/08/2010 04:19:47 PM 1053 Views
I may be wrong Camilla - 13/08/2010 04:24:28 PM 1008 Views
Property isn't just agricultural. Phelix - 13/08/2010 06:11:12 PM 937 Views
True enough SilverWarder - 16/08/2010 03:12:31 PM 1251 Views
yes but about half of the old testament deals with protecting those rights random thoughts - 13/08/2010 05:16:09 PM 1016 Views
The relationship between religion and rain go even farther back... Phelix - 13/08/2010 06:15:32 PM 1002 Views
to me it is a beside the point when it comes to the law random thoughts - 13/08/2010 06:25:50 PM 1029 Views
moot, not mute Camilla - 13/08/2010 08:48:04 PM 1252 Views
damn random thoughts - 13/08/2010 08:52:23 PM 1097 Views
Actually, I agree with that snoopcester - 12/08/2010 10:01:37 PM 904 Views
See, now this, I could deal with.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 10:06:15 PM 901 Views
So is it that you are hung up on the name then? SilverWarder - 13/08/2010 03:29:02 PM 971 Views
Rights.... Phelix - 12/08/2010 09:34:45 PM 990 Views
See, what I don't get is why gay people care about jh - 12/08/2010 08:18:45 PM 1012 Views
It's mostly about getting married in the eyes of the state. Phelix - 12/08/2010 08:42:52 PM 1128 Views
I'm fairly sure Jonte was referring only to the "churches have to accept gay marriages" bit. *NM* Legolas - 12/08/2010 08:44:52 PM 600 Views
Hmmm... Then I shall reply to that part here. Phelix - 12/08/2010 08:50:10 PM 1126 Views
Oh, so it is an american thing, then. *NM* jh - 14/08/2010 08:58:28 AM 542 Views
Starting again Camilla - 12/08/2010 08:23:08 PM 1100 Views
Not at all MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:58:45 PM 1040 Views
Re: Not at all Camilla - 13/08/2010 09:14:48 AM 836 Views
Agreed *NM* snoopcester - 13/08/2010 10:21:06 AM 435 Views
Oh dear Camilla - 13/08/2010 10:30:45 AM 950 Views
But what if I like being selfish and evil? *NM* snoopcester - 13/08/2010 11:25:01 AM 566 Views
Well, being English might help you get away with it Camilla - 13/08/2010 11:26:17 AM 830 Views
I'm curious Sareitha Sedai - 13/08/2010 01:49:15 PM 996 Views
Camilla - 13/08/2010 01:54:19 PM 887 Views
Okay, good. Sareitha Sedai - 13/08/2010 01:58:14 PM 1059 Views
I suppose you also think that religious Pacifists should be eligible for the draft? Dannymac - 12/08/2010 08:42:21 PM 1110 Views
very nicely said *NM* random thoughts - 13/08/2010 02:16:53 PM 450 Views
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