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Gay Marriage MalkierKnight Send a noteboard - 12/08/2010 10:23:19 AM
The gay marriage debate/controversy has always been an issue that has attracted my interest. As a young child, my knee jerk reaction was to relate the plight of gays to the plight of African-americans. This sympathy has, however, waned significantly in recent years. Only recently, have I come to a belief about gay marriage on which I'm quite firm and unmoving (though open to other ideas).

I know many on this site are open, mindful, accepting, and understanding of homosexuals (so perhaps this won't piss off nearly as many people as I hope ;P). And many of you might agree with my opinion on gay marriage. But for those of you who don't, I'd really like to hear how in the world you manage to believe what you do without realizing how glaringly inconsistent, mistaken, and sometimes homophobic you are being.

First, my opinion. I believe that opposition to civil unions between homosexuals is unfounded. I believe that opposition to marriage between homosexuals is unfounded. And I believe that any church or private institution that refuses to marry homosexuals, who are otherwise average citizens, ought to be made by power of law to marry homosexuals.

I recognize those last couple statements may come with some controversy, but hear me out. I promise that I will earnestly hear out any opinions/arguments against my own, as well.

But first, the civil unions argument. 1) Legally, there's no reason to deny homosexuals the right to be civilly united (that sounds awful btw). Certain rights come with being legally joined and homosexuals have every right to exercise those rights if they see fit. Religious definitions of marriage (i.e. that it is strictly between a man and a woman) need not come into play here since civil unions do not involve the church.

Before I move on, a bit more on this point for those who still aren't satisfied. Laws exist to preserve order and prevent anarchy or oppression. Laws with a purpose outside of this are superfluous, unconstitutional, and ought to be thrown out (that is not to say that there are not many laws like this, but the topic of this debate is gay marriage so we'll limit it to that). When laws are put in place without consideration as to how they preserve order and prevent lawlessness and oppression, fascism or anarchy results. For example, a law allowing luxury cars to run red lights would result in a significant amount of damage. Laws however demanding that all cars stop at red lights and stop signs, that we obey speed limits, etc., keep people safe and peaceful.

Prohibiting gay civil unions fulfills none of these categories. Gays will not, upon being legally joined, run through the streets causing damage. They will not negatively effect the ability of others to marry. So prohibition of gay marriage is without grounds.

Now, moving on to my later claims. i) The church defines marriage as the union of a man and a woman under god. ii) The bible also explicitly mentions that homosexuals are "abominations." (you can look that quote up if you want, I promise it's in there, I just can't recall what book, verse or chapter). These "reasons" are what Christians say are grounds for their refusal to acknowledge that gays can love each other eternally under god.

Statement (i) seems to be the most damaging to my points, because it is a definition of marriage. But why do Christians define marriage between a man and a woman? Christians imply that this statement specifies that gays ought not be included. However, that statement does not uphold to even the most basic scrutiny. First, we must recognize that when church doctrine concerning marriage was first established there were likely a significantly less number of homosexuals marrying each other. The context of the era was strictly hetero. The definition of marriage is more an explanation of what occurs rather than a textbook to guide us on future conclusions about marriage. At the VERY least, there is no overt indication int he bible that the definition of marriage provided is meant for us to assess marriage in the future. Even today, the Catholic Church is constantly revising its opinions in an effort to modernize and establish a working context. The era in which marriage was "defined" is nothing like the modern era. To hinge an entire argument on this simple definition, bereft of context and explanation is flimsy to say the least.

Of course, Christians may argue that God need not give explanations. What he says is simply enough. To those of you who say that, I pose the question, "How do you know what God meant by those words?" It is very likely that God was speaking only on society in that era. God certainly never mentioned about online porn. That is why Christianity must grow and reevaluate itself as the world changes. (That was why there were prophets. Every so often, one of them came along to "modernize" the religion with a new word of god, making things more clear and better fit for the area. It's a real shame we haven't had one in so long. I really wonder why that is.)

Now that we can throw out the definition of marriage as a valid argument, let's look at this whole "gays are abominations" sympathy that runs throughout Christianity. The bible clearly states that homosexuality is a sin and that gays are abominations. So why let them marry? They are bad people according to the bible. Well, because Christianity is a religion that bases itself on accepting sinners and wrongdoers. Does the Christian church regularly to refuse convicted felons? Wife-beaters? Terrorists? Pedophiles? Or any number of monsters who has been married under Christian tradition? The answer is an emphatic NO. Christianity embraces sinners, accepting them for their humanity and vulnerability. Seeking to help them better themselves, even if they make little real effort themselves. How then, can homosexuality be so above and beyond these other offenses that it would be unreasonable to marry one? If someone can answer that question without referring to the definition of marriage which I've just debunked, then please respond to this post or NB me.

Having analyzed the anti-gay marriage arguments available, I see no qualified reason to deny gays the right to marriage. In fact, refusal to marry someone based on sexual preference is discrimination and the government has grounds to force churches into marrying gays. Church and state might be separate, but that does not make churches a safe haven for law breaking and discrimination is breaking the law.

One cannot refuse to serve someone based on the color of their skin, their country of ancestry, or their favorite color. So why their sexual preference?

The only phenomenon that can explain this is the veiled homophobia that runs rampant in American society. It appalls me to see people so speciously argue against gay marriage.

If anyone can better explain to me the reasoning behind those against gay marriage, please let me know.

And for those Christians out there who are not against gay marriage and to whom this post is not in any way directed at, please do not feel like I'm berating all Christians. I know and care about many Christians, consider them close friends, and respectable people. But on this issue, I cannot understand their beliefs. Only homophobia explains them.
You must unlearn what you have learned.
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Gay Marriage - 12/08/2010 10:23:19 AM 1835 Views
I disagree on the latter part - 12/08/2010 12:04:15 PM 1210 Views
I follow your point... - 12/08/2010 12:14:17 PM 1192 Views
Suspect you would find plenty of denominations that would argue with you rather strenuously. - 12/08/2010 12:24:55 PM 1188 Views
See, that's what I'm saying... - 12/08/2010 07:37:26 PM 1153 Views
She didn't say that gays ought not be married. - 12/08/2010 07:45:37 PM 1010 Views
You didn't read my post. - 12/08/2010 09:10:21 PM 1066 Views
Actually, you didn't read my post - 12/08/2010 09:23:54 PM 1107 Views
Um, you're wrong. - 12/08/2010 09:37:13 PM 1116 Views
Re: Um, you're wrong. - 12/08/2010 09:44:17 PM 1073 Views
You're still wrong. - 12/08/2010 09:54:55 PM 1210 Views
Re: You're still wrong. - 12/08/2010 09:58:26 PM 1066 Views
Again, you are still wrong. - 12/08/2010 10:04:42 PM 1114 Views
Re: Again, you are still wrong. - 12/08/2010 10:17:13 PM 963 Views
Wrong definition of "club" - 12/08/2010 10:30:52 PM 1211 Views
My clubs are cooler than yours. *NM* - 12/08/2010 10:35:13 PM 578 Views
I play golf with mine. *NM* - 12/08/2010 10:43:01 PM 589 Views
Re: Wrong definition of "club" - 12/08/2010 10:40:55 PM 1117 Views
Are you a member of one of those churches? - 12/08/2010 10:44:12 PM 1133 Views
Also also: - 12/08/2010 10:46:05 PM 1143 Views
Re: Are you a member of one of those churches? - 12/08/2010 10:49:44 PM 1046 Views
Re: Wrong definition of "club" - 12/08/2010 10:47:20 PM 1152 Views
I don't think he means that kind of club. - 12/08/2010 10:31:41 PM 1027 Views
Also - 12/08/2010 10:02:44 PM 1160 Views
And wrong again. - 12/08/2010 10:08:24 PM 1183 Views
Not so quick! - 12/08/2010 10:21:31 PM 1020 Views
Yes, so quick! - 12/08/2010 10:32:13 PM 967 Views
Let's be reasonable here - 12/08/2010 10:41:53 PM 1077 Views
Why do you get to judge? - 12/08/2010 10:48:57 PM 1104 Views
I don't - 12/08/2010 10:53:21 PM 998 Views
OK. - 12/08/2010 10:58:22 PM 1110 Views
Re: OK. - 12/08/2010 11:03:50 PM 1042 Views
Then please stop. - 12/08/2010 11:01:05 PM 1079 Views
What's wrong with discussion? - 12/08/2010 11:05:48 PM 1019 Views
Discussion? Nothing. Your assertions about other people's views, something. - 12/08/2010 11:09:48 PM 1047 Views
Really? - 12/08/2010 11:13:46 PM 1077 Views
Yes. That is incorrect. - 12/08/2010 11:18:05 PM 1039 Views
What, because the expressive message of scouting is anti-gay? - 12/08/2010 10:12:54 PM 919 Views
Re: What, because the expressive message of scouting is anti-gay? - 12/08/2010 10:23:36 PM 1065 Views
Well then that brings us back to my question, which you have yet to answer. - 12/08/2010 10:36:48 PM 1022 Views
Re: Well then that brings us back to my question, which you have yet to answer. - 12/08/2010 10:46:22 PM 1137 Views
Apparently you do believe that you are more qualified - 12/08/2010 10:57:00 PM 1009 Views
You are wrong - 12/08/2010 11:11:37 PM 858 Views
Really? - 12/08/2010 11:19:10 PM 948 Views
Not entirely true either... or, well, true as far as Brown goes. - 12/08/2010 10:08:42 PM 1030 Views
Heh... we discuss restaurants a post or two over there.. ---> - 12/08/2010 10:10:26 PM 1127 Views
Actually, I did. And since everyone else told you you're wrong about that I didn't see any need - 12/08/2010 09:38:33 PM 1105 Views
Re: Actually, I did. And since everyone else told you you're wrong about that I didn't see any need - 12/08/2010 09:55:05 PM 1038 Views
Gah. - 12/08/2010 09:59:45 PM 989 Views
Yes yes yes. It was ungracious. I got bored. *NM* - 12/08/2010 10:03:17 PM 541 Views
What a mature response. - 12/08/2010 10:11:00 PM 1172 Views
Yes. - 12/08/2010 10:21:38 PM 1111 Views
Re: Yes. - 12/08/2010 10:35:51 PM 1055 Views
I can't speak for Rebekah, but I don't think the issue is that your points are invalid per se. - 12/08/2010 10:22:30 PM 1011 Views
I think my point was unclear in that post - 12/08/2010 10:55:34 PM 1082 Views
It seems that by your (to me nebulous) definition - 12/08/2010 11:05:01 PM 1085 Views
Re: I think my point was unclear in that post - 13/08/2010 10:58:28 AM 990 Views
+1 - 13/08/2010 09:16:24 AM 876 Views
Hehe - 13/08/2010 10:46:25 AM 929 Views
Um - 12/08/2010 09:46:43 PM 1138 Views
That's a very good question. *NM* - 12/08/2010 09:49:05 PM 532 Views
So good it doesn't even need an answer, apparently *NM* - 12/08/2010 10:26:41 PM 574 Views
So good I responded to it someplace else. *NM* - 12/08/2010 10:56:05 PM 468 Views
It makes no sense - 12/08/2010 04:29:24 PM 975 Views
Re: It makes no sense - 12/08/2010 07:39:25 PM 1054 Views
Re: It makes no sense - 12/08/2010 07:41:02 PM 1128 Views
It's not sanctioning anything - 12/08/2010 09:25:44 PM 1081 Views
Re: It's not sanctioning anything - 12/08/2010 09:28:45 PM 1050 Views
Nonsense - 12/08/2010 09:35:25 PM 1003 Views
Yes, but while marrying two murderers does not ensure that they will continue to murder... - 12/08/2010 09:08:53 PM 968 Views
Re: Yes, but while marrying two murderers does not ensure that they will continue to murder... - 12/08/2010 09:42:21 PM 1082 Views
Suspect you've not read that either. - 12/08/2010 09:43:32 PM 1013 Views
What other church sanctioned circumstances encourage continued sin? - 12/08/2010 09:45:33 PM 1137 Views
Infant baptism, obviously. - 12/08/2010 09:51:48 PM 1128 Views
*NM* - 12/08/2010 09:53:17 PM 378 Views
*groan* I forgot that one! - 12/08/2010 10:09:07 PM 1083 Views
Re: What other church sanctioned circumstances encourage continued sin? - 13/08/2010 11:04:02 AM 1073 Views
Wow, it's almost like an entire denomination believes that! *NM* - 13/08/2010 03:41:07 PM 517 Views
really? - 13/08/2010 03:42:42 PM 948 Views
- 13/08/2010 03:43:26 PM 878 Views
Yeah, that's the Roman Catholic basis against masturbation and contraception. *NM* - 13/08/2010 04:12:00 PM 516 Views
Yes - 13/08/2010 04:22:58 PM 925 Views
Which is interesting - 13/08/2010 04:28:09 PM 911 Views
Yes - 13/08/2010 04:29:25 PM 895 Views
Original poster. *NM* - 13/08/2010 04:32:18 PM 570 Views
- 13/08/2010 04:34:30 PM 921 Views
Dude....please at least have a working knowledge of the Bible before you spout off. - 12/08/2010 10:47:13 PM 958 Views
I like the part in 1 Corinthians (is it chapter 6?) - 12/08/2010 10:49:55 PM 855 Views
Ya know?!? - 12/08/2010 10:55:27 PM 965 Views
I'm not sure you're correct there. - 12/08/2010 04:33:02 PM 1072 Views
Re: I'm not sure you're correct there. - 12/08/2010 07:40:16 PM 1086 Views
There is a difference... - 12/08/2010 09:02:20 PM 1119 Views
No you don't. - 12/08/2010 09:16:52 PM 1101 Views
That's another concern - 12/08/2010 12:39:53 PM 1162 Views
Not quite my point - 12/08/2010 09:19:50 PM 1024 Views
secular marriage is decoupled from religious marriage - 12/08/2010 02:50:43 PM 1149 Views
Simple, require the legal and religious marriage to be performed separately. - 12/08/2010 02:58:43 PM 985 Views
What in the world would that accomplish? - 12/08/2010 03:44:32 PM 1069 Views
Provide some much-needed clarity, evidently. - 12/08/2010 03:49:33 PM 920 Views
the problem is it would be changing a centuries old tradition.. - 12/08/2010 04:26:47 PM 931 Views
heheheheheheheHAHAHAHEHEHehehehehahheeh*cough* - 12/08/2010 04:55:09 PM 939 Views
thats OK I am sure you will get over it - 12/08/2010 05:22:08 PM 975 Views
Just guessing, but I think it was the "centuries old tradition" that set off the giggle fit. - 12/08/2010 07:25:38 PM 1099 Views
Really? I was hoping for something better - 12/08/2010 10:06:00 PM 1029 Views
So government recognition makes your religion meaningful? - 12/08/2010 10:11:54 PM 1115 Views
not my religion I'm agnostic - 12/08/2010 10:34:40 PM 978 Views
OK, but the point remains the same. - 12/08/2010 10:51:59 PM 1091 Views
Of course it would - 12/08/2010 11:10:03 PM 1163 Views
I'm not far left, thank you very much. *NM* - 12/08/2010 10:20:31 PM 588 Views
no but your are European and that slants your views *NM* - 12/08/2010 10:36:01 PM 579 Views
Sure, but in this case it has little to do with left or right. - 12/08/2010 10:40:42 PM 1035 Views
that is what I said when I metioned you were European *NM* - 12/08/2010 11:11:31 PM 580 Views
Simples - 12/08/2010 09:30:31 PM 1061 Views
there are about 140 post ranging from boyscouts to infant babtism - 12/08/2010 10:57:46 PM 1058 Views
So. - 14/08/2010 01:27:59 AM 896 Views
sorry I responded I forgot what a tool you are. my bad - 14/08/2010 02:48:57 AM 1415 Views
Agreed *NM* - 12/08/2010 03:45:04 PM 466 Views
I love you, Camilla - 12/08/2010 04:02:15 PM 858 Views
Re: I love you, Camilla - 12/08/2010 04:04:10 PM 1048 Views
Is there an all above option? *NM* - 12/08/2010 04:23:24 PM 621 Views
Naturally. - 12/08/2010 04:25:14 PM 1037 Views
I know I do *NM* - 12/08/2010 05:17:35 PM 545 Views
Another thing - 12/08/2010 07:42:21 PM 1125 Views
A couple of things - 12/08/2010 12:58:09 PM 1028 Views
I disagree - 12/08/2010 07:47:26 PM 1148 Views
Well, you're within your rights to certainly - 12/08/2010 08:24:30 PM 1122 Views
there is major flaw in your argument - 12/08/2010 03:31:45 PM 1164 Views
Re: there is major flaw in your argument - 12/08/2010 04:01:32 PM 1049 Views
I should clarify that I support gay marriage - 12/08/2010 05:20:36 PM 985 Views
One point about Prop. 8 - 12/08/2010 07:38:55 PM 1028 Views
I know that is the commonl;y held belief but I thinkit is wrong - 12/08/2010 10:32:58 PM 951 Views
Religious institutions, though, pushed hard to pass it. - 12/08/2010 10:42:33 PM 1036 Views
there are major flaws in your argument - 12/08/2010 07:51:52 PM 1127 Views
Women can't be priests in the Catholic church. - 12/08/2010 08:00:24 PM 807 Views
Hehe. You beat me by 6 seconds. *NM* - 12/08/2010 08:03:28 PM 496 Views
Great minds and all. *NM* - 12/08/2010 08:06:01 PM 501 Views
I was writing a reply to this post... - 12/08/2010 03:51:01 PM 1052 Views
I feel your pain *NM* - 12/08/2010 07:52:28 PM 580 Views
Forcing religious institutions to marry gay couples is hideously unconstitutional. - 12/08/2010 04:18:59 PM 1076 Views
100% agreed. - 12/08/2010 05:05:35 PM 1131 Views
This. *NM* - 12/08/2010 07:36:57 PM 424 Views
You are absolutely wrong - 12/08/2010 07:57:19 PM 1070 Views
By that token - 12/08/2010 08:00:30 PM 950 Views
My God.... - 12/08/2010 09:49:18 PM 1018 Views
no You are absolutely wrong - 12/08/2010 10:08:57 PM 958 Views
Well, that was horrifyingly stupid. - 13/08/2010 12:57:46 AM 1041 Views
I am a Christian who wholeheartedly supports Gay Marriage. - 12/08/2010 06:49:28 PM 1156 Views
Fair enough. - 12/08/2010 08:01:37 PM 1087 Views
Why do people equate.... - 12/08/2010 07:11:15 PM 986 Views
Because "homophobic", like "xenophobic", has shifted a bit in meaning... - 12/08/2010 07:33:56 PM 1066 Views
So then.... - 12/08/2010 07:39:24 PM 992 Views
Well, strongly anti-gay, yes. - 12/08/2010 07:43:40 PM 843 Views
Homophobic is generally "anti-gay" or "anti-queer"... - 12/08/2010 07:46:22 PM 1145 Views
Re: Why do people equate.... - 12/08/2010 08:04:24 PM 1138 Views
+1 - 12/08/2010 08:06:19 PM 1176 Views
Stop with the pile on Camilla. - 12/08/2010 09:22:35 PM 1103 Views
You would have said nothing if I had just said "agreed" - 12/08/2010 09:27:33 PM 925 Views
Which speaks highly of you.... - 12/08/2010 09:36:30 PM 1105 Views
This is being very petty. *NM* - 12/08/2010 09:41:26 PM 551 Views
As opposed to a snarky +1 comment? *NM* - 12/08/2010 09:45:02 PM 570 Views
It's not snarky. - 12/08/2010 09:47:47 PM 1041 Views
Its a +1 shorthand comment... - 12/08/2010 09:52:04 PM 1331 Views
Wow. Those two characters allowed you to read Camilla's motivations? - 12/08/2010 09:54:25 PM 958 Views
*shrug* - 12/08/2010 09:58:42 PM 1166 Views
Yes, I am terribly selfish - 13/08/2010 09:10:54 AM 946 Views
Re: Why do people equate.... - 12/08/2010 09:13:07 PM 1137 Views
Re: Why do people equate.... - 12/08/2010 09:26:41 PM 1046 Views
LOL - 12/08/2010 09:42:32 PM 1018 Views
Re: LOL - 13/08/2010 09:12:29 AM 966 Views
you are exactly why the state needs to make a clear seperation between the secular and religious - 12/08/2010 09:33:22 PM 1017 Views
Ok, so if the state does then... - 12/08/2010 09:44:31 PM 956 Views
No, marriage started because of property. - 12/08/2010 09:59:14 PM 1053 Views
So then two things come to mind... - 12/08/2010 10:04:39 PM 1029 Views
Only two? - 12/08/2010 10:27:08 PM 1027 Views
Is this the same guy... - 12/08/2010 10:43:02 PM 939 Views
I thought the cow died in an accident, but yes... that guy. - 12/08/2010 10:58:46 PM 1011 Views
That's a little difficult to do - 13/08/2010 03:19:32 PM 1186 Views
Re: That's a little difficult to do - 13/08/2010 03:30:14 PM 1055 Views
Oh, I hope not - 13/08/2010 04:19:47 PM 1053 Views
I may be wrong - 13/08/2010 04:24:28 PM 1007 Views
Property isn't just agricultural. - 13/08/2010 06:11:12 PM 937 Views
True enough - 16/08/2010 03:12:31 PM 1251 Views
yes but about half of the old testament deals with protecting those rights - 13/08/2010 05:16:09 PM 1015 Views
The relationship between religion and rain go even farther back... - 13/08/2010 06:15:32 PM 1001 Views
to me it is a beside the point when it comes to the law - 13/08/2010 06:25:50 PM 1028 Views
moot, not mute - 13/08/2010 08:48:04 PM 1251 Views
damn - 13/08/2010 08:52:23 PM 1095 Views
Actually, I agree with that - 12/08/2010 10:01:37 PM 903 Views
See, now this, I could deal with.... - 12/08/2010 10:06:15 PM 900 Views
So is it that you are hung up on the name then? - 13/08/2010 03:29:02 PM 970 Views
Rights.... - 12/08/2010 09:34:45 PM 990 Views
See, what I don't get is why gay people care about - 12/08/2010 08:18:45 PM 1012 Views
It's mostly about getting married in the eyes of the state. - 12/08/2010 08:42:52 PM 1128 Views
I'm fairly sure Jonte was referring only to the "churches have to accept gay marriages" bit. *NM* - 12/08/2010 08:44:52 PM 600 Views
Hmmm... Then I shall reply to that part here. - 12/08/2010 08:50:10 PM 1126 Views
Oh, so it is an american thing, then. *NM* - 14/08/2010 08:58:28 AM 542 Views
Starting again - 12/08/2010 08:23:08 PM 1099 Views
Not at all - 12/08/2010 10:58:45 PM 1039 Views
Re: Not at all - 13/08/2010 09:14:48 AM 834 Views
Agreed *NM* - 13/08/2010 10:21:06 AM 435 Views
Oh dear - 13/08/2010 10:30:45 AM 949 Views
But what if I like being selfish and evil? *NM* - 13/08/2010 11:25:01 AM 566 Views
Well, being English might help you get away with it - 13/08/2010 11:26:17 AM 828 Views
I'm curious - 13/08/2010 01:49:15 PM 995 Views
- 13/08/2010 01:54:19 PM 886 Views
Okay, good. - 13/08/2010 01:58:14 PM 1059 Views
I suppose you also think that religious Pacifists should be eligible for the draft? - 12/08/2010 08:42:21 PM 1108 Views
very nicely said *NM* - 13/08/2010 02:16:53 PM 450 Views

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