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You continue to be wrong about history and the role of courts. Dreaded Anomaly Send a noteboard - 10/08/2010 01:05:39 AM
And those laws are based on the fourteenth and fifteenth amendment. If an airlines were to sue claiming that the federal government can not tell them how much they can charge people for tickets one of the reasons they would lose it the fourteenth.


I still don't know where you're getting this airline stuff. There are not, as far as I know, laws against airlines requiring overweight customers to purchase two seats, nor have I said that there are or should be (based on any amendment).

But there is a very real difference. When the second and third amendment was written they didn't know anything about automatic weapons and massive media campaigns but they did know what homosexuality was and they did nothing to protect it. You are wrong about treating companies as individuals and giving them rights, corporations have long been seen as having many of the same protections as citizens.


You're factually incorrect about corporations in early America; see the link below.

I agree with the part about changing social norms but the problem is social norms have not changed enough in this case or the amendment never would have passed. Courts can adept to changing social norms but they should not be the ones trying to change them.


Just so we're clear: the amendment passed because of a fear-based campaign which asserted, without a shred of evidence, that allowing gay marriage would mean that every child in public school would be "indoctrinated" into believing that it was acceptable. Now, I personally think it should be taught in public schools that gay relationships marriages are not inferior, but that's a separate issue from merely allowing them. The amendment passed because people were scared into believing their rights as parents would be taken away; it had very little to do with the actual issue at hand.

Sure I have but you refuse to accept it. A court decided to expand the constitution despite the fact that every other branch of government opposed it and the voters in every state that has voted on have opposed it. That is the courts acting independently and that is to far. If it was a case of defending existing rights or well defined rights I would agree but the courts are too alone on this.


Every other branch of government in the state or the country? If it's the latter, that's definitely not true. Also, as I'm sure has been said several times already, issues relating to minorities should not be put up to a vote by the majority. It is quite directly contrary to the founding principles of our government.

Wow that is the most backasswards idea of balance of power that I have ever seen. You are arguing that the check to keeps from running amuck a writing laws they way they see fit is amend the constitution.


That's always how it's worked. Courts made pro-slavery rulings on pro-slavery laws because, at the time, slavery was enshrined in the Constitution. The 13th Amendment was passed so those rulings and laws would become obsolete. If you review the history I'm sure you'll agree that opposition to that was also on a large scale; do you think they should have waited? Similar statements can be made about suffrage (based on race and gender) as well as segregation. If Congress decides that the Constitution as it stands is lending itself to interpretations they oppose, they have the power to change that.

That is great sunshine and roses but it really isn't a fundamental part of government and never has been. If it was we not have had slavery and Jim Crow. I am all for equal rights but I don't want some life time appointed judge to be the sole authority of whose rights need to be protected. His job is to follow the constitution not bring about social justice.


Slavery and Jim Crow support my position, not yours. People have let their biases keep them from correctly interpreting the principles of our government in the past, just like they do now. That doesn't make those principles any less valid or important.

That would be valid argument if we were discussing the specifics of his ruling but since we are discussing broader concepts his ruling is nothing more then someone’s opinion on it. Feel free to site any part of you like but please don’t feel free to give me reading assignments. Read the entire bible and the Koran then come back and refute every point dealing homosexuality and law and then I will take you seriously.


The Bible and the Koran do not apply to United States law, as we are a secular country.

It really comes down to the basic argument that the role of the court is not change laws and society but to ensure that the changes brought by the other branches meets the constitution. Courts should not be a vehicle for change and I feel safe in the assumption that there is nothing in his ruling that will change my opinion on that.


Social change needs to be forced through if it's ever truly going to happen. The courts and legislators have both played this role in the past, but right now the legislators of our country are hamstrung by their own cowardice in the face of ever-more-fickle public opinion (propelled by this relatively new environment of ubiquitous communication), as well as the anti-minorities "public referendum" systems of many states. That makes it the court's turn to step in, just as they did for segregation.

Your arguments seem to be predicated on the idea that arbitrary social conventions are worth more than coherent principles. The history of this country shows the opposite: as time goes on, we achieve progress by discarding such conventions in favor of better adhering to the principles we claim to respect. The idea that social change should require "consensus" simply is not supported on either a psychological or a historical level, as shown by the many examples I've brought up in this post and elsewhere. There is a tipping point for social change, but it's the point at which lightning strikes the ground, swift and momentous, forcing the eye to adjust; it's not the gradual sunrise, the sky becoming gray and then growing imperceptibly brighter from one second to the next.
History of Corporations (United States)
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Judge rules California's ban on same-sex marriage is unconstitutional - 04/08/2010 10:40:50 PM 1366 Views
Thank God. *NM* - 04/08/2010 10:52:30 PM 382 Views
Amen. *NM* - 05/08/2010 02:09:24 AM 438 Views
Good news, but as the article says, it'll go all the way to the SC. - 04/08/2010 10:55:58 PM 714 Views
So then is that how we do it? - 04/08/2010 11:01:19 PM 839 Views
Of course. - 04/08/2010 11:04:59 PM 750 Views
His point was - 04/08/2010 11:40:14 PM 894 Views
Yeah but: What Ghavrel said below *NM* - 05/08/2010 08:01:02 AM 433 Views
And again... - 05/08/2010 06:08:56 PM 595 Views
well that is sort of the idea of how democracy works - 04/08/2010 11:06:57 PM 729 Views
I'm not the one who came up with the referendum system, you do realize. - 04/08/2010 11:11:13 PM 739 Views
The referendum system, in my opinion, has been a failure, especially in CA. - 04/08/2010 11:46:21 PM 822 Views
democracy has been a failure in CA. - 05/08/2010 02:42:21 PM 609 Views
No. It just shows the problems of a crazy electorate. - 05/08/2010 03:29:21 PM 724 Views
I think you made my point *NM* - 05/08/2010 03:35:00 PM 401 Views
About Californians being crazy, yes. *NM* - 05/08/2010 04:53:32 PM 375 Views
we vote fro way to much crap in general - 05/08/2010 02:41:19 PM 669 Views
Yeah, I agree. - 05/08/2010 04:11:34 PM 661 Views
my one recent dealing with our criminal justice - 05/08/2010 04:25:30 PM 699 Views
There are certain things that should not be decided by a vote... - 05/08/2010 02:02:45 AM 733 Views
I do agree with you on that. Hell yes, and on a subject like this in particular. - 05/08/2010 02:17:24 AM 789 Views
Re: I do agree with you on that. Hell yes, and on a subject like this in particular. - 05/08/2010 10:46:54 AM 779 Views
I understand it. - 05/08/2010 03:06:40 PM 764 Views
I know you don't support proposition 8 - 05/08/2010 03:29:34 PM 749 Views
- 05/08/2010 03:34:01 PM 788 Views
But that is just simplistic and silly to complain about when it is a long standing possibility - 05/08/2010 03:46:59 PM 669 Views
Oh, ees it? - 05/08/2010 04:07:39 PM 810 Views
Well they knew the rules before they started the whole thing - 05/08/2010 04:12:33 PM 650 Views
Why would you complain if you won? - 05/08/2010 04:15:20 PM 740 Views
You could recognise that you won by the system working in a way you don't like? - 05/08/2010 04:23:58 PM 620 Views
I'm sure that happens, in general. - 06/08/2010 02:43:18 PM 605 Views
It seems to happen a lot nowadays - 06/08/2010 03:06:33 PM 639 Views
instead it should be decided by judges who answer to no one? *NM* - 05/08/2010 07:12:59 AM 389 Views
The same judges who upheld our private right to bear arms. - 05/08/2010 02:09:07 PM 766 Views
not when judges stop using the Constitution - 05/08/2010 02:30:51 PM 741 Views
Sexual preference is not the right being protected. - 05/08/2010 03:22:04 PM 812 Views
I know that the 14th amendment is routinely used in ways it was never intended. - 05/08/2010 05:25:07 PM 722 Views
I realize that, but it is ultimately a good thing. - 05/08/2010 05:31:19 PM 794 Views
I am really on the fence a bit on the whole issue - 05/08/2010 06:00:59 PM 737 Views
I generally agree with you. - 05/08/2010 06:33:56 PM 752 Views
let's take away the citizenship of all black people if that's the way you think - 05/08/2010 09:06:23 PM 652 Views
Come now lets not be stupid - 06/08/2010 05:31:18 PM 617 Views
sorry but your statement was completely ignorant. - 06/08/2010 07:27:09 PM 734 Views
I will talk as soon as you stop spouting stupid rhetoric and say something relevant - 06/08/2010 07:54:09 PM 700 Views
bullshit. you will personally attack me no matter what i say. - 07/08/2010 02:04:04 PM 747 Views
Let's just be clear about which amendment is which. - 05/08/2010 11:50:57 PM 618 Views
but that still ignores intent and expands the law in ways not intnented when it created - 06/08/2010 04:53:43 AM 677 Views
Yes, no, no, and no. - 06/08/2010 05:29:09 AM 708 Views
there are serious flaws in your thinking here - 06/08/2010 06:18:13 PM 792 Views
Your assertions continue to lack support. - 06/08/2010 07:23:17 PM 819 Views
not all you just refuse to see things you disagree with - 06/08/2010 08:36:32 PM 783 Views
...said the pot to the kettle - 06/08/2010 09:17:28 PM 853 Views
yes but a shiny stainless steel pot - 09/08/2010 11:21:33 PM 900 Views
You continue to be wrong about history and the role of courts. - 10/08/2010 01:05:39 AM 1245 Views
If he's wrong, a lot of law scholars and Supreme Court Justices are wrong. - 10/08/2010 01:44:05 AM 703 Views
Brown vs. Board of Education, 'nuff said. *NM* - 10/08/2010 04:32:37 AM 385 Views
part oif the problem appears to be you completely missing the point - 10/08/2010 01:23:19 PM 915 Views
let my simplify my argument - 10/08/2010 01:42:47 PM 622 Views
Since when is marriage a right? *NM* - 05/08/2010 04:11:16 PM 375 Views
it may not be a "right"... - 05/08/2010 04:22:44 PM 651 Views
This is where the debate comes into play.... - 05/08/2010 05:04:08 PM 666 Views
How much would it change the debate if it was nurture, really? - 05/08/2010 09:48:22 PM 686 Views
except this is not merely a matter of changing society - 05/08/2010 11:18:48 PM 730 Views
1948. *NM* - 05/08/2010 04:50:30 PM 371 Views
It's a benefit that is being extended selectively to one set of the populace. - 05/08/2010 04:52:52 PM 733 Views
Hey, I'm single.... - 05/08/2010 05:05:41 PM 647 Views
That's a specious argument and you know it. - 05/08/2010 05:13:17 PM 720 Views
A homosexual has every opportunity as well..... - 05/08/2010 05:23:56 PM 668 Views
Oh quit the bullshit already. - 05/08/2010 05:29:15 PM 869 Views
Slow your role... - 05/08/2010 09:08:54 PM 773 Views
Your religious beliefs have 100% to do with your position. - 05/08/2010 09:43:23 PM 814 Views
Sorry, but what a nonsense. - 05/08/2010 09:27:17 PM 637 Views
hey that's it, jens! you solved the WHOLE PROBLEM!!! - 05/08/2010 11:24:29 PM 769 Views
ON TO WORLD HUNGER! - 06/08/2010 07:59:51 AM 662 Views
LET THEM HAVE CAEK. *NM* - 06/08/2010 02:29:56 PM 356 Views
Are you sure it's wise to feed people on a lie? *NM* - 06/08/2010 02:34:26 PM 447 Views
People are fed lies all the time - 06/08/2010 09:30:37 PM 645 Views
I agree with you - 05/08/2010 05:06:40 PM 703 Views
That's not valid. - 05/08/2010 05:26:50 PM 713 Views
I invite you to read the judge's conclusions, linked again inside. - 05/08/2010 11:43:44 PM 754 Views
Since 1948 - 06/08/2010 04:01:02 AM 856 Views
gah. can. only. see. typo. *NM* - 06/08/2010 03:43:21 PM 345 Views
I don't see any typo... *NM* - 06/08/2010 04:07:18 PM 402 Views
Open the link. *NM* - 06/08/2010 04:47:04 PM 492 Views
Oh, right. Yeah, that does kinda detract from things. *NM* - 06/08/2010 04:48:47 PM 381 Views
I agree - 05/08/2010 07:22:17 AM 724 Views
And Civil Rights lost the Democrats the South. - 05/08/2010 03:44:56 PM 739 Views
but it was done by congress passing laws and the president signing those laws - 05/08/2010 04:20:19 PM 685 Views
uhm, what? - 05/08/2010 04:24:43 PM 676 Views
those were mostly rulings up holding laws not stiking them down - 05/08/2010 05:05:15 PM 742 Views
I was under the impression that the supreme court had a role in it - 05/08/2010 04:31:51 PM 663 Views
but the court was not over turning the laws passed by congress - 05/08/2010 05:11:06 PM 709 Views
No, like in this case, isn't it? - 05/08/2010 05:24:19 PM 655 Views
I would say that is another case of judicial activism and shows the danger of the practice - 05/08/2010 05:43:02 PM 620 Views
Which one is? I imagine from different view points both are. - 06/08/2010 10:34:11 AM 623 Views
The law wasn't constitutional. - 07/08/2010 06:17:04 AM 661 Views
well it will take a higher court to decide that - 09/08/2010 10:46:15 PM 692 Views
Hard to believe it's the same governor who said "Gay marriage should be between a man and a woman." *NM* - 04/08/2010 11:05:45 PM 459 Views
Or "Iff it bleeds we can kill itt!" *NM* - 04/08/2010 11:14:45 PM 434 Views
Another step in the right direction. *NM* - 04/08/2010 11:08:15 PM 454 Views
Link to the full court order inside: - 04/08/2010 11:43:29 PM 845 Views
The judge quoting Scalia in favour of gay marriage is fairly amusing. - 04/08/2010 11:50:47 PM 725 Views
What page was that on? - 05/08/2010 11:25:49 AM 642 Views
Nah, it was way above page 109, in the findings of fact somewhere. - 05/08/2010 12:37:48 PM 744 Views
Oh, that is brilliant. - 05/08/2010 01:12:21 PM 648 Views
Pretty much. - 05/08/2010 01:44:22 PM 779 Views
I've always wondered what basis there is for banning necrophilia if "it's disgusting" is invalid. - 05/08/2010 01:51:19 PM 725 Views
because you cannot give consent when you are dead? - 05/08/2010 03:04:46 PM 713 Views
what if you give consent while you are still alive? - 05/08/2010 03:21:59 PM 814 Views
Is it then illegal? - 05/08/2010 03:23:46 PM 732 Views
I would think it would be illegal even then - 05/08/2010 03:34:31 PM 747 Views
Wikipedia to the rescue! - 05/08/2010 04:20:15 PM 870 Views
A dead body is just an object, not a person with rights. - 05/08/2010 03:27:08 PM 732 Views
Yes, but - 06/08/2010 08:42:05 AM 689 Views
Absolutely not. - 06/08/2010 03:21:14 PM 738 Views
not to mention necrophilia has a large potential to be hazardous to health. - 06/08/2010 09:42:43 PM 787 Views
That was a very well written judgement. - 05/08/2010 11:24:38 AM 742 Views
- 05/08/2010 12:10:02 AM 737 Views
Totally agree. - 05/08/2010 01:01:42 PM 777 Views
+1 *NM* - 05/08/2010 03:42:08 PM 399 Views
Irrelevant decision.....this was heading to SCOTUS from day 1 *NM* - 05/08/2010 12:53:26 AM 414 Views

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