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There's a simple way to determine the degree to which that opinion is objective or subjective... Legolas Send a noteboard - 06/08/2010 09:32:21 PM
Also, your continued assertion that the judge is trying to "change the law" to meet his "personal idea of justice" shows nothing more than that you still haven't read the ruling. If you can point to specific passages indicating the judge is relying on his personal opinion above an objective interpretation of the facts and evidence, do so. Otherwise, quit it with the unsubstantiated claims.

Which is asking yourself honestly whether a judge personally opposed to gay marriage could have come to the opposite conclusion without intentionally misinterpreting or ignoring the law. In other words, whether the court case was a formality - whether the Supreme Court appeal that will no doubt happen at some point will be a formality. I think it's fairly clear that the answer is that yes, such a judge could have reached the opposite conclusion, and no, the Supreme Court appeal will not be a formality.

Before even looking at the opinion itself, there have been important judgement calls made by the judge that could have gone another way - I'm referring to the decision of which materials to review and to take into account.

And then in the opinion itself, most of the "findings of fact" are, obviously, factual to some degree, although on certain topics they present things as incontroversial fact that other judges might have been a bit more hesitant about (most notably number 70 where he claims there is no serious debate anymore about children raised by lesbian and gay couples being not different from those raised by straight couples). And there are a few that are seriously dubious (most particularly number 61 which claims that "Proposition 8 amends the California Constitution to codify distinct and unique roles for men and women in marriage";). When he gets to discussing the Due Process matter, though, and delves into what the "core" of marriage has been historically and what it is now, surely there's a good bit of subjectivism in that. Obviously I agree with him, but still one can legitimately disagree with some of the statements there.

And then there's (p. 132-133) the matter of whether moral disapprobation of something is a sufficient reason for legislative action - he seems to take it for granted that it isn't, based on Lawrence v. Texas. The SC did indeed strike down Texas' sodomy laws as he says, but it was far from a unanimous decision, and Wikipedia says lower courts have declined to apply that decision too widely later on (for instance upholding an Alabama ban on sex toys). That doesn't mean Walker is wrong to use Lawrence to rule as he does, but it does mean it would've been possible to rule otherwise.
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Judge rules California's ban on same-sex marriage is unconstitutional - 04/08/2010 10:40:50 PM 1366 Views
Thank God. *NM* - 04/08/2010 10:52:30 PM 382 Views
Amen. *NM* - 05/08/2010 02:09:24 AM 438 Views
Good news, but as the article says, it'll go all the way to the SC. - 04/08/2010 10:55:58 PM 714 Views
So then is that how we do it? - 04/08/2010 11:01:19 PM 839 Views
Of course. - 04/08/2010 11:04:59 PM 750 Views
His point was - 04/08/2010 11:40:14 PM 894 Views
Yeah but: What Ghavrel said below *NM* - 05/08/2010 08:01:02 AM 433 Views
And again... - 05/08/2010 06:08:56 PM 595 Views
well that is sort of the idea of how democracy works - 04/08/2010 11:06:57 PM 729 Views
I'm not the one who came up with the referendum system, you do realize. - 04/08/2010 11:11:13 PM 739 Views
The referendum system, in my opinion, has been a failure, especially in CA. - 04/08/2010 11:46:21 PM 822 Views
democracy has been a failure in CA. - 05/08/2010 02:42:21 PM 609 Views
No. It just shows the problems of a crazy electorate. - 05/08/2010 03:29:21 PM 724 Views
I think you made my point *NM* - 05/08/2010 03:35:00 PM 401 Views
About Californians being crazy, yes. *NM* - 05/08/2010 04:53:32 PM 375 Views
we vote fro way to much crap in general - 05/08/2010 02:41:19 PM 670 Views
Yeah, I agree. - 05/08/2010 04:11:34 PM 661 Views
my one recent dealing with our criminal justice - 05/08/2010 04:25:30 PM 699 Views
There are certain things that should not be decided by a vote... - 05/08/2010 02:02:45 AM 733 Views
I do agree with you on that. Hell yes, and on a subject like this in particular. - 05/08/2010 02:17:24 AM 789 Views
Re: I do agree with you on that. Hell yes, and on a subject like this in particular. - 05/08/2010 10:46:54 AM 779 Views
I understand it. - 05/08/2010 03:06:40 PM 764 Views
I know you don't support proposition 8 - 05/08/2010 03:29:34 PM 749 Views
- 05/08/2010 03:34:01 PM 789 Views
But that is just simplistic and silly to complain about when it is a long standing possibility - 05/08/2010 03:46:59 PM 669 Views
Oh, ees it? - 05/08/2010 04:07:39 PM 810 Views
Well they knew the rules before they started the whole thing - 05/08/2010 04:12:33 PM 650 Views
Why would you complain if you won? - 05/08/2010 04:15:20 PM 740 Views
You could recognise that you won by the system working in a way you don't like? - 05/08/2010 04:23:58 PM 620 Views
I'm sure that happens, in general. - 06/08/2010 02:43:18 PM 606 Views
It seems to happen a lot nowadays - 06/08/2010 03:06:33 PM 639 Views
instead it should be decided by judges who answer to no one? *NM* - 05/08/2010 07:12:59 AM 389 Views
The same judges who upheld our private right to bear arms. - 05/08/2010 02:09:07 PM 766 Views
not when judges stop using the Constitution - 05/08/2010 02:30:51 PM 741 Views
Sexual preference is not the right being protected. - 05/08/2010 03:22:04 PM 812 Views
I know that the 14th amendment is routinely used in ways it was never intended. - 05/08/2010 05:25:07 PM 722 Views
I realize that, but it is ultimately a good thing. - 05/08/2010 05:31:19 PM 794 Views
I am really on the fence a bit on the whole issue - 05/08/2010 06:00:59 PM 737 Views
I generally agree with you. - 05/08/2010 06:33:56 PM 752 Views
let's take away the citizenship of all black people if that's the way you think - 05/08/2010 09:06:23 PM 652 Views
Come now lets not be stupid - 06/08/2010 05:31:18 PM 617 Views
sorry but your statement was completely ignorant. - 06/08/2010 07:27:09 PM 734 Views
I will talk as soon as you stop spouting stupid rhetoric and say something relevant - 06/08/2010 07:54:09 PM 701 Views
bullshit. you will personally attack me no matter what i say. - 07/08/2010 02:04:04 PM 747 Views
Let's just be clear about which amendment is which. - 05/08/2010 11:50:57 PM 618 Views
but that still ignores intent and expands the law in ways not intnented when it created - 06/08/2010 04:53:43 AM 677 Views
Yes, no, no, and no. - 06/08/2010 05:29:09 AM 708 Views
there are serious flaws in your thinking here - 06/08/2010 06:18:13 PM 792 Views
Your assertions continue to lack support. - 06/08/2010 07:23:17 PM 819 Views
not all you just refuse to see things you disagree with - 06/08/2010 08:36:32 PM 783 Views
...said the pot to the kettle - 06/08/2010 09:17:28 PM 854 Views
yes but a shiny stainless steel pot - 09/08/2010 11:21:33 PM 900 Views
You continue to be wrong about history and the role of courts. - 10/08/2010 01:05:39 AM 1246 Views
If he's wrong, a lot of law scholars and Supreme Court Justices are wrong. - 10/08/2010 01:44:05 AM 703 Views
Brown vs. Board of Education, 'nuff said. *NM* - 10/08/2010 04:32:37 AM 385 Views
part oif the problem appears to be you completely missing the point - 10/08/2010 01:23:19 PM 915 Views
let my simplify my argument - 10/08/2010 01:42:47 PM 622 Views
There's a simple way to determine the degree to which that opinion is objective or subjective... - 06/08/2010 09:32:21 PM 652 Views
Since when is marriage a right? *NM* - 05/08/2010 04:11:16 PM 375 Views
it may not be a "right"... - 05/08/2010 04:22:44 PM 651 Views
This is where the debate comes into play.... - 05/08/2010 05:04:08 PM 666 Views
How much would it change the debate if it was nurture, really? - 05/08/2010 09:48:22 PM 686 Views
except this is not merely a matter of changing society - 05/08/2010 11:18:48 PM 730 Views
1948. *NM* - 05/08/2010 04:50:30 PM 371 Views
It's a benefit that is being extended selectively to one set of the populace. - 05/08/2010 04:52:52 PM 733 Views
Hey, I'm single.... - 05/08/2010 05:05:41 PM 647 Views
That's a specious argument and you know it. - 05/08/2010 05:13:17 PM 720 Views
A homosexual has every opportunity as well..... - 05/08/2010 05:23:56 PM 668 Views
Oh quit the bullshit already. - 05/08/2010 05:29:15 PM 869 Views
Slow your role... - 05/08/2010 09:08:54 PM 773 Views
Your religious beliefs have 100% to do with your position. - 05/08/2010 09:43:23 PM 814 Views
Sorry, but what a nonsense. - 05/08/2010 09:27:17 PM 637 Views
hey that's it, jens! you solved the WHOLE PROBLEM!!! - 05/08/2010 11:24:29 PM 769 Views
ON TO WORLD HUNGER! - 06/08/2010 07:59:51 AM 662 Views
LET THEM HAVE CAEK. *NM* - 06/08/2010 02:29:56 PM 356 Views
Are you sure it's wise to feed people on a lie? *NM* - 06/08/2010 02:34:26 PM 447 Views
People are fed lies all the time - 06/08/2010 09:30:37 PM 645 Views
I agree with you - 05/08/2010 05:06:40 PM 703 Views
That's not valid. - 05/08/2010 05:26:50 PM 714 Views
I invite you to read the judge's conclusions, linked again inside. - 05/08/2010 11:43:44 PM 754 Views
Since 1948 - 06/08/2010 04:01:02 AM 856 Views
gah. can. only. see. typo. *NM* - 06/08/2010 03:43:21 PM 345 Views
I don't see any typo... *NM* - 06/08/2010 04:07:18 PM 402 Views
Open the link. *NM* - 06/08/2010 04:47:04 PM 492 Views
Oh, right. Yeah, that does kinda detract from things. *NM* - 06/08/2010 04:48:47 PM 381 Views
I agree - 05/08/2010 07:22:17 AM 725 Views
And Civil Rights lost the Democrats the South. - 05/08/2010 03:44:56 PM 739 Views
but it was done by congress passing laws and the president signing those laws - 05/08/2010 04:20:19 PM 685 Views
uhm, what? - 05/08/2010 04:24:43 PM 676 Views
those were mostly rulings up holding laws not stiking them down - 05/08/2010 05:05:15 PM 742 Views
I was under the impression that the supreme court had a role in it - 05/08/2010 04:31:51 PM 663 Views
but the court was not over turning the laws passed by congress - 05/08/2010 05:11:06 PM 709 Views
No, like in this case, isn't it? - 05/08/2010 05:24:19 PM 655 Views
I would say that is another case of judicial activism and shows the danger of the practice - 05/08/2010 05:43:02 PM 620 Views
Which one is? I imagine from different view points both are. - 06/08/2010 10:34:11 AM 623 Views
The law wasn't constitutional. - 07/08/2010 06:17:04 AM 662 Views
well it will take a higher court to decide that - 09/08/2010 10:46:15 PM 692 Views
Hard to believe it's the same governor who said "Gay marriage should be between a man and a woman." *NM* - 04/08/2010 11:05:45 PM 459 Views
Or "Iff it bleeds we can kill itt!" *NM* - 04/08/2010 11:14:45 PM 434 Views
Another step in the right direction. *NM* - 04/08/2010 11:08:15 PM 454 Views
Link to the full court order inside: - 04/08/2010 11:43:29 PM 845 Views
The judge quoting Scalia in favour of gay marriage is fairly amusing. - 04/08/2010 11:50:47 PM 725 Views
What page was that on? - 05/08/2010 11:25:49 AM 642 Views
Nah, it was way above page 109, in the findings of fact somewhere. - 05/08/2010 12:37:48 PM 744 Views
Oh, that is brilliant. - 05/08/2010 01:12:21 PM 648 Views
Pretty much. - 05/08/2010 01:44:22 PM 779 Views
I've always wondered what basis there is for banning necrophilia if "it's disgusting" is invalid. - 05/08/2010 01:51:19 PM 725 Views
because you cannot give consent when you are dead? - 05/08/2010 03:04:46 PM 713 Views
what if you give consent while you are still alive? - 05/08/2010 03:21:59 PM 814 Views
Is it then illegal? - 05/08/2010 03:23:46 PM 732 Views
I would think it would be illegal even then - 05/08/2010 03:34:31 PM 747 Views
Wikipedia to the rescue! - 05/08/2010 04:20:15 PM 870 Views
A dead body is just an object, not a person with rights. - 05/08/2010 03:27:08 PM 732 Views
Yes, but - 06/08/2010 08:42:05 AM 689 Views
Absolutely not. - 06/08/2010 03:21:14 PM 738 Views
not to mention necrophilia has a large potential to be hazardous to health. - 06/08/2010 09:42:43 PM 787 Views
That was a very well written judgement. - 05/08/2010 11:24:38 AM 742 Views
- 05/08/2010 12:10:02 AM 737 Views
Totally agree. - 05/08/2010 01:01:42 PM 777 Views
+1 *NM* - 05/08/2010 03:42:08 PM 399 Views
Irrelevant decision.....this was heading to SCOTUS from day 1 *NM* - 05/08/2010 12:53:26 AM 414 Views

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