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do they look any different than the rest of you folks? Aisha Send a noteboard - 27/06/2010 08:08:31 AM
im just wondering if a "Roma" person wants to mainstream it and get an education and try to find a job, how can people discriminate against them? also what happened to that little girl in your article is absolutely horrifying.

Whenever someone reminds me that the Holocaust didn't just target Jews, but also gypsies and communists, my reaction is usually, "So are you trying to say Hitler wasn't all bad, then?"

Obviously, it's an exaggeration. People should not be murdered or persecuted as a result of their ethnic background, particularly innocent children. I'm not so sure about the communists, but that's not the point of this post.

This post IS about the gypsies, however. Every time I read about anti-gypsy sentiment in Europe (like CNN.com's story from today - see below), a part of me asks if they are like the gypsies (or, if you want to be PC, Roma) that were everywhere in Russia in the early 1990s. The reason I wonder is because, while nothing excuses physical violence against the helpless (I feel terrible for that poor little three-year-old girl), I can still understand the animus to a certain extent if gypsies in Europe proper behave like they used to in Russia.

In the 1990s in Russia, the gypsies were everywhere. The children (some of the dirtiest, foulest-smelling children outside of Third World slums you can imagine) would gather together in groups of 12 or more that would accost people arriving at train stations, airports or tourist sites and try to engage in pickpocketing. Any attempt at grabbing them to stop them from running away with wallets or passports or hitting them to keep them away from pockets would result in the arrival of several men who would then attack the people who had "attacked" their children.

The women would be located a ways away, usually begging (usually with infants too small to join the children picking pockets). Actually, the closer explanation is "aggressive panhandling". Given how superstitious people in Russia can be, the idea that the gypsy woman is trying to yank some hairs off your head if you don't give her money is very disconcerting.

A few blocks from this, the men would be engaging in shell games, money changing scams and some semi-legal petty trading at the market or bazaar.

In short, when people in Russia referred to "gypsies" they were not talking about simply an ethnicity, but an entire way of life that centered around lying, cheating, stealing and leeching off other people (including the government).

As a result, every time I hear about "anti-Roma violence" in Europe, be it in Italy, the Czech Republic, Slovakia or elsewhere, my initial reaction is, "That's terrible - but if the 'Roma' are acting like the gypsies in Russia, I can sort of understand why people don't want them living near them."

Is this the case? Are people just so terrified about being politically correct and/or not sounding like Nazis that they won't talk about the reprehensible lifestyle that accompanies these people? Or are Western European Roma simply trying to get jobs and live normal lives, but shut out for ethnic reasons?

In Russia, the government has cracked down on the gypsies and so the activities that I saw in the early and mid-1990s are largely a thing of the past.
Aisha - formerly known as randschicka
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Europeans - what is the deal with the gypsies? - 26/06/2010 08:43:59 PM 1063 Views
I think you'd need to ask Central- and East-Europeans for more details, but... - 26/06/2010 08:55:04 PM 699 Views
Is there a sense that they live off subsidies etc.? - 26/06/2010 09:35:12 PM 671 Views
Considering their poverty, one would assume that they do. - 26/06/2010 09:38:57 PM 681 Views
They are here too.. - 27/06/2010 01:36:07 AM 591 Views
do they look any different than the rest of you folks? - 27/06/2010 08:08:31 AM 626 Views
It's nothing like what you describe in Russia. - 27/06/2010 09:20:55 AM 663 Views
I know what people are trying to say about the Holocaust. - 27/06/2010 03:15:06 PM 590 Views
I'm also curious about the Tramps and Thieves. *NM* - 27/06/2010 08:27:49 PM 235 Views
I think it is more extreme in Eastern Europe - 28/06/2010 02:11:01 PM 797 Views
That's awful!!! - 28/06/2010 11:03:43 PM 570 Views
Re: That's awful!!! - 28/06/2010 11:31:43 PM 607 Views
Argh. - 28/06/2010 02:17:50 PM 770 Views
Maybe Ireland needs to be more like Scotland. - 28/06/2010 02:58:11 PM 521 Views
Jesus, imagine the rain if we combined the two... - 28/06/2010 03:10:38 PM 539 Views
How is it that they have freedom of movement if they get deported? - 28/06/2010 11:38:11 PM 675 Views
Political posturing, as usual. - 29/06/2010 02:19:59 PM 718 Views
There is nothing that could justify an attack like this one. - 29/06/2010 02:09:54 PM 553 Views
Being from the UK, it is hard to say fairly. - 01/07/2010 02:10:13 PM 814 Views

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