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Re: Interesting, but not surprising Camilla Send a noteboard - 04/06/2010 07:14:51 PM
Yes, I have had enough experience with political activism to know that there are some who think that PR is best achieved through violence. I have no doubt that there were people on that boat who would happily provoke a confrontation. But that just brings us back to Israel being stupid for biting.

And the fact remains, there were a lot of people on that boat NOT part of that type of activism. Including a lot of journalists, as you can see from my reply below. And was it two peace prize winners?

*MySmiley*
structured procrastinator
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Israeli attack on aid convoy Camilla - 31/05/2010 10:21:02 AM 2577 Views
Seems a bit of a mess. Rebekah - 31/05/2010 11:09:04 AM 1262 Views
Re: Seems a bit of a mess. everynametaken - 31/05/2010 05:14:45 PM 1256 Views
Israel was in a no win situation Wibble - 31/05/2010 12:09:13 PM 1482 Views
And Mr Hague has just made his 1st mistake Wibble - 31/05/2010 12:26:28 PM 1515 Views
you do realize israel had plenty of options to deter the boats other than opening fire on them? moondog - 31/05/2010 06:20:03 PM 1580 Views
do you realize they didn't open fire on the ship? random thoughts - 31/05/2010 07:51:53 PM 1211 Views
supposedly the boat being boarded shouted "we are raising the white flag, stop shooting" moondog - 31/05/2010 07:54:49 PM 1443 Views
Why is it that the Israelis are routinely not believed and the Palestinian extremists are? Tom - 31/05/2010 08:17:09 PM 1465 Views
probably because israel has a history of opening fire on people they don't agree with? moondog - 31/05/2010 08:26:19 PM 1355 Views
And the Palestinians don't? And obnoxious Turks don't? *NM* Tom - 31/05/2010 09:02:20 PM 521 Views
this was not a palestinian boat moondog - 31/05/2010 09:09:47 PM 1348 Views
I'm aware of that. But there were some Palestinians on board from what I read. Tom - 31/05/2010 10:03:59 PM 1278 Views
And a holocaust survivor and a Scottish journalist. Quite the mixed bag, really. *NM* snoopcester - 31/05/2010 10:04:52 PM 572 Views
No it was TURKS!!!!!!!!! p hart - 31/05/2010 11:09:49 PM 1310 Views
supposed by who? random thoughts - 31/05/2010 08:47:47 PM 1567 Views
From what I heard, 11 dead. jh - 31/05/2010 12:26:59 PM 1341 Views
Norwegian news is saying "at least 19" Camilla - 31/05/2010 12:29:14 PM 1259 Views
It's a PR disaster, surely. Legolas - 31/05/2010 12:31:50 PM 1322 Views
What Legolas said... Bramhodoulos - 31/05/2010 01:56:56 PM 1390 Views
To be fair: they said they'd never let the flotilla through so what did people expect? *NM* Rebekah - 31/05/2010 02:01:10 PM 588 Views
A) No killings, and B) No open sea piracy. jh - 31/05/2010 02:23:28 PM 1343 Views
Enforcing a blockade isn't piracy, and violence was a predictable result. *NM* Tom - 31/05/2010 02:35:35 PM 576 Views
That defense gets sketchy if it was in international waters. *NM* Camilla - 31/05/2010 02:37:00 PM 575 Views
Why? Because of international "law"? I doubt the US will agree to do anything to Israel. *NM* Tom - 31/05/2010 02:55:29 PM 591 Views
And in turn I doubt China will agree to do anything about Iran. everynametaken - 31/05/2010 05:18:59 PM 1134 Views
Not likely. Tom - 31/05/2010 05:37:42 PM 1306 Views
Interestingly enough, one of our problems with China seemd to vanish from the news... Vodalus - 01/06/2010 02:02:35 AM 1185 Views
Nice catch. Joel - 01/06/2010 09:56:03 AM 1368 Views
A little digging around has turned up a few nuggets. Vodalus - 01/06/2010 10:12:10 PM 1318 Views
*shrug* Your opinions are not worth water in this question. jh - 31/05/2010 03:05:31 PM 1377 Views
Sure, whatever. *NM* Tom - 31/05/2010 05:38:23 PM 583 Views
ships are boarded in international waters all of the time *NM* random thoughts - 31/05/2010 07:53:53 PM 529 Views
Yes, but then the pirates are hunted down and shot by the russians. *NM* jh - 31/05/2010 09:15:52 PM 483 Views
in this case it was Israel that hunt them down and shot them *NM* random thoughts - 01/06/2010 04:34:19 AM 567 Views
No, those would be the pirates. *NM* jh - 01/06/2010 10:03:37 AM 626 Views
no those would be tghe radicals that got them selfs killed trying to run a blockade. *NM* random thoughts - 02/06/2010 01:42:23 AM 633 Views
What ship did they board? *NM* jh - 02/06/2010 01:42:17 PM 609 Views
It is impressive that you are still trying Camilla - 02/06/2010 02:59:02 PM 1311 Views
no it is just a stupid and inaccurate analogy random thoughts - 02/06/2010 03:05:32 PM 1333 Views
Well, that are two concepts that you are intimately familiar with... jh - 02/06/2010 07:30:07 PM 1451 Views
and talking with you only makes me more familar with the issues random thoughts - 02/06/2010 07:41:20 PM 1222 Views
Calling me a Jew-hater now? jh - 02/06/2010 08:23:08 PM 1412 Views
you compare Israel to North Korea and want to talk about stupid random thoughts - 02/06/2010 08:34:03 PM 1115 Views
Propaganda is propaganda. You're the one who chooses to believe in it. *NM* jh - 02/06/2010 10:13:42 PM 580 Views
thats funny coming from you *NM* random thoughts - 03/06/2010 02:08:41 PM 610 Views
Indeed. *NM* Rebekah - 31/05/2010 04:30:11 PM 637 Views
Um, I know what I expected: that they wouldn't kill anyone. *NM* Legolas - 31/05/2010 04:02:38 PM 561 Views
Ideally, that wouldn't have happened. But when are real life situations ever ideal? Rebekah - 31/05/2010 04:29:50 PM 1337 Views
That's a bit of a meager excuse. Legolas - 31/05/2010 04:42:35 PM 1369 Views
It's not an excuse, more of a "they were warned". *NM* Rebekah - 31/05/2010 04:52:39 PM 593 Views
Why did Israel have to waste time and effort "exhausting peaceful options" in the first place? Tom - 31/05/2010 05:41:59 PM 1274 Views
I don't think it was so inexorable that the result would be that. Legolas - 31/05/2010 05:57:29 PM 1298 Views
To be fair: this is israel's typical response to international pro-palestinian protest groups moondog - 31/05/2010 06:37:25 PM 1104 Views
This won't change anything random thoughts - 31/05/2010 06:04:54 PM 1265 Views
Re: This won't change anything Legolas - 31/05/2010 06:13:36 PM 1241 Views
Here's the link. Vodalus - 31/05/2010 06:44:06 PM 1202 Views
America and Turkey are military allies, so they do care. Werthead - 31/05/2010 06:14:21 PM 1443 Views
yes and that alliance came in so handy back in 2003 random thoughts - 31/05/2010 07:50:12 PM 1286 Views
That nearly all went extremely wrong. Werthead - 31/05/2010 08:20:41 PM 1475 Views
Yes...why are we allied with a country like that? Tom - 31/05/2010 08:22:12 PM 1202 Views
Positioning Werthead - 31/05/2010 08:54:56 PM 1445 Views
Question snoopcester - 31/05/2010 10:00:43 PM 1319 Views
The Turkish people is certainly quite anti-American Floffe - 31/05/2010 11:26:37 PM 1408 Views
I thought we were talking Government policy? snoopcester - 01/06/2010 12:21:53 PM 1393 Views
Re: I thought we were talking Government policy? p hart - 01/06/2010 05:18:56 PM 1430 Views
The Israelis warned them. If they resisted violently they knew they would/could get shot dead. Tom - 31/05/2010 02:34:38 PM 1378 Views
Most likely true. jh - 31/05/2010 03:06:55 PM 1330 Views
An Israeli friend on fb Bramhodoulos - 31/05/2010 04:15:32 PM 1228 Views
That sounds like utter nonsense. *NM* Camilla - 31/05/2010 04:18:06 PM 658 Views
Because? *NM* Bramhodoulos - 31/05/2010 04:18:45 PM 504 Views
The Israeli army would know better than to send soldiers with paintball guns Camilla - 31/05/2010 04:20:52 PM 1310 Views
Maybe "paintball guns" is a way of saying non-lethal guns Bramhodoulos - 31/05/2010 04:25:05 PM 1383 Views
actiually, it is *NM* aragornital - 01/06/2010 08:19:02 PM 704 Views
Because soldiers going into a dangerous situation don't carry paintball guns SilverWarder - 31/05/2010 04:21:50 PM 1314 Views
you can't fire rubber bullets on a ship AgentOrange - 31/05/2010 05:17:31 PM 1261 Views
Generalization SilverWarder - 31/05/2010 05:22:58 PM 1226 Views
I highly doubt they held paintball guns. everynametaken - 31/05/2010 05:01:15 PM 1394 Views
Not least if one goes on the latest accounts coming out snoopcester - 31/05/2010 05:07:46 PM 1302 Views
I see, this may have caused the confusion... Bramhodoulos - 01/06/2010 04:19:22 PM 1280 Views
Actually, some Israeli military sources are saying that some commandos had paintball guns snoopcester - 01/06/2010 04:53:12 PM 1376 Views
Paintball weapons? Weird. They don't hurt nad enough to incapacitate. everynametaken - 02/06/2010 01:32:33 AM 1324 Views
Plus they have a tendency to jam. snoopcester - 02/06/2010 11:46:18 AM 1250 Views
It sucks, but I don't think the Israelis really had any choice. SilverWarder - 31/05/2010 04:20:07 PM 1366 Views
two points of criticism moondog - 31/05/2010 06:50:31 PM 1201 Views
Those could be valid. SilverWarder - 02/06/2010 05:45:35 PM 1475 Views
On the blockade... Legolas - 02/06/2010 06:06:24 PM 1302 Views
three years is the number I keep seeing random thoughts - 02/06/2010 06:22:05 PM 1283 Views
So what do you think would've happened if Israel hadn't tried to stop the convoy? Legolas - 02/06/2010 06:47:52 PM 1349 Views
your rationale assumes people would have believed them random thoughts - 02/06/2010 07:05:34 PM 1336 Views
Of course it does. Legolas - 02/06/2010 08:00:34 PM 1275 Views
how? random thoughts - 02/06/2010 08:50:21 PM 1357 Views
Two pistols? snoopcester - 02/06/2010 07:06:35 PM 1282 Views
pipes were last minute? there is video of them using them before the ships were even boarded random thoughts - 02/06/2010 07:43:06 PM 1223 Views
There is footage of them preparing them before the Israeli forces arrived? snoopcester - 02/06/2010 07:46:26 PM 1279 Views
look at the link I posted at the bottom random thoughts - 02/06/2010 08:03:18 PM 1253 Views
Perhaps you linked the wrong one? snoopcester - 03/06/2010 01:13:33 PM 1086 Views
you argument requires we believe they were surprised the IDF showed up random thoughts - 03/06/2010 01:59:07 PM 1267 Views
You require we don't know much about ships or common sense snoopcester - 03/06/2010 02:16:25 PM 1182 Views
Okay folks - ease off SilverWarder - 03/06/2010 03:04:18 PM 1214 Views
the naval blockade has been firmly in place for the last 3-ish years, but.... moondog - 03/06/2010 02:48:11 AM 1346 Views
I'm a bit confused by what you're saying about Egypt. Legolas - 03/06/2010 09:53:27 AM 1220 Views
confused by which part? moondog - 03/06/2010 04:15:22 PM 1302 Views
Nor does Egypt allow aid into Gaza, except for the occasional medical supply. Rebekah - 03/06/2010 04:21:27 PM 1123 Views
egypt does open the border against israel's wishes though moondog - 03/06/2010 04:30:46 PM 1338 Views
Only when it suits them to a) claim Arab brotherhood, and b) make political hay. Rebekah - 03/06/2010 05:58:54 PM 1214 Views
Other sources don't agree snoopcester - 03/06/2010 04:29:03 PM 1186 Views
ah yes. see, there are actually two different barriers being discussed here moondog - 04/06/2010 01:14:21 AM 1210 Views
I understood that Egypt was for it? snoopcester - 03/06/2010 01:15:58 PM 1198 Views
see the article i linked to in reply to legolas *NM* moondog - 03/06/2010 04:17:08 PM 565 Views
So Israel has committed international piracy so it can keep up the collective punishment of children snoopcester - 31/05/2010 04:52:40 PM 1443 Views
Darn! You posted "stay classy" first. everynametaken - 31/05/2010 05:04:08 PM 1208 Views
Muahahahahaha! snoopcester - 31/05/2010 05:05:20 PM 1310 Views
I don't get the reference Camilla - 31/05/2010 05:14:41 PM 1192 Views
How does that even make sense ? AgentOrange - 01/06/2010 07:17:26 AM 1323 Views
I was talking in general terms snoopcester - 01/06/2010 12:24:12 PM 1236 Views
The UN treaty does not class this as piracy SilverWarder - 02/06/2010 06:10:35 PM 1393 Views
Interesting - I guess I need to rephrase to them acting like pirates snoopcester - 02/06/2010 06:58:18 PM 1266 Views
It's more some kind of violation of sovreign soil I expect SilverWarder - 02/06/2010 08:04:11 PM 1399 Views
Seems so snoopcester - 03/06/2010 01:00:54 PM 1104 Views
I don't really have a bone in this fight cmdjing - 31/05/2010 04:54:59 PM 1436 Views
And exactly how would you suggest doing this 'disabling'? SilverWarder - 31/05/2010 05:02:21 PM 1162 Views
They do have the equivalent of SEALS I would imagine. everynametaken - 31/05/2010 05:08:50 PM 1259 Views
They certainly do SilverWarder - 31/05/2010 05:34:14 PM 1283 Views
Pretty easy actually cmdjing - 31/05/2010 05:14:34 PM 1179 Views
No it ain't SilverWarder - 31/05/2010 05:27:39 PM 1260 Views
Sure it is cmdjing - 31/05/2010 05:44:16 PM 1185 Views
Movies vs. Reality Grimbear - 01/06/2010 02:54:13 AM 1218 Views
If Israel was out for blood, how come there were no injuired on all the previous convoys ? AgentOrange - 31/05/2010 05:34:06 PM 1300 Views
Because Israel didn't go insane trying to stop the previous convoys? And even let some of them pass. *NM* Legolas - 31/05/2010 05:37:22 PM 587 Views
go insane ? I expect you to make more sense than that AgentOrange - 01/06/2010 07:09:18 AM 1162 Views
I think "go insane" about covers it, yes. Legolas - 01/06/2010 11:11:27 AM 1241 Views
Who said the Israelis were "out for blood"? Most people just think it was a dumb move. *NM* everynametaken - 31/05/2010 07:58:14 PM 582 Views
Question: is your government ever going to fire Ayalon? Legolas - 31/05/2010 09:21:14 PM 1359 Views
What an amazing gift this will be for Sunni extremists and Shiite activists. *NM* Vodalus - 31/05/2010 05:40:04 PM 679 Views
You think they needed this sort of thing to get whipped into a frenzy? Tom - 31/05/2010 05:48:39 PM 1206 Views
For themselves? No. But it will translate into a massive PR boon for them and their message. Vodalus - 31/05/2010 06:07:00 PM 1191 Views
Lesson: Don't try and run a blockade manned by people who are better armed than you. Dragonsoul - 31/05/2010 05:40:16 PM 1254 Views
America isn't blockading Cuba cmdjing - 31/05/2010 05:55:23 PM 1308 Views
Fine, change Venezuelan to American and it's the same thing. Dragonsoul - 31/05/2010 05:59:50 PM 1298 Views
Dude. There is no blockade. There are no American ships surrounding Cuba. *NM* Legolas - 31/05/2010 06:04:22 PM 531 Views
Oh. Geeze I always thought the Americans had ships preventing vessils from reaching Cuba. Dragonsoul - 31/05/2010 06:18:42 PM 1230 Views
Only in 1961. Joel - 01/06/2010 10:02:59 AM 1332 Views
I'm not sure if the US physically enforces it cmdjing - 31/05/2010 06:11:57 PM 1189 Views
Well I'm not American. Dragonsoul - 31/05/2010 06:21:15 PM 1291 Views
Europe and Canada trade plenty with Cuba - and go on holidays there. Legolas - 31/05/2010 06:29:33 PM 1276 Views
No no I know. Dragonsoul - 31/05/2010 06:41:55 PM 1342 Views
The point of that snoopcester - 31/05/2010 06:42:46 PM 1165 Views
Yeah see I thought they did that with force of arms. Dragonsoul - 31/05/2010 07:09:08 PM 1226 Views
No the restrictions apply only to US Citizens BlackAdder - 31/05/2010 08:44:44 PM 1212 Views
They do not enforce it. The executive branch knows they will lose if they get challenged in court. BlackAdder - 31/05/2010 08:37:53 PM 1319 Views
The biggest problem for Israel is that this incident didn't occur on the blockade line. Werthead - 31/05/2010 06:25:38 PM 1390 Views
I find it odd that innocent unarmed civilians can seriously injure armed commandos random thoughts - 31/05/2010 06:47:55 PM 1309 Views
How dare you cloud the issue with facts! *NM* Tom - 31/05/2010 07:57:18 PM 517 Views
i never saw where they were called unarmed? moondog - 31/05/2010 08:33:03 PM 1280 Views
so they were armed relief workers? random thoughts - 31/05/2010 08:54:29 PM 1272 Views
we are pretty sure who fired first now random thoughts - 02/06/2010 03:06:39 PM 1287 Views
oh, they released the footage shot on board the boat? moondog - 02/06/2010 04:13:25 PM 1298 Views
so you won't accept footage from the IDF? That will make believing whatever you want easier random thoughts - 02/06/2010 05:34:59 PM 1245 Views
yes, i should only believe the one side who has a case to prove instead of listening to both moondog - 03/06/2010 02:51:05 AM 1246 Views
that is a joke. Guilty until proven innocent seems to be your policy with Israel random thoughts - 03/06/2010 02:06:57 PM 1252 Views
israel has a history of botching these things. forgive me if i follow the history... moondog - 04/06/2010 01:17:06 AM 1147 Views
and the radicals are known for their honesty, atleasy in what you like to think is reality random thoughts - 04/06/2010 02:12:18 PM 1136 Views
Turkey has threatened to send military vessels with future aid convoys. Werthead - 31/05/2010 07:50:54 PM 1382 Views
If they do that, we should kick them out of NATO. Tom - 31/05/2010 07:56:47 PM 1396 Views
We can only hope. *NM* everynametaken - 31/05/2010 08:02:16 PM 567 Views
If by "help the Greek economy" you mean "make them bankrupt", it could work. *NM* Legolas - 31/05/2010 08:04:14 PM 589 Views
What are you talking about? We'd subsidize their army and pump billions into their economy. Tom - 31/05/2010 08:06:44 PM 1236 Views
I am talking about the fact that part of the reason for their current financial trouble... Legolas - 31/05/2010 08:49:43 PM 1315 Views
If I learned anything from Diplomacy, it was that BlackAdder - 31/05/2010 09:03:36 PM 1389 Views
Winter 2010? What version of Diplomacy are you playing? Tom - 31/05/2010 09:45:38 PM 1222 Views
Re: Winter 2010? What version of Diplomacy are you playing? BlackAdder - 31/05/2010 10:12:22 PM 1322 Views
Not entirely necessary. Werthead - 31/05/2010 08:30:09 PM 1395 Views
UPDATE: Proof that IDF soldiers were attacked as they boarded the Turkish ship Dragonsoul - 31/05/2010 09:23:02 PM 1398 Views
"Violent, extremist attack"? Are you for real? Legolas - 31/05/2010 09:29:43 PM 1324 Views
What else would you call it? Dragonsoul - 31/05/2010 09:43:01 PM 1284 Views
Okay, in that case it's more justified. Sorry. Legolas - 31/05/2010 09:45:18 PM 1352 Views
Attempting to repel boarders? Or is that to unbiased a term for you? snoopcester - 31/05/2010 09:56:31 PM 1196 Views
Except these "armed pirates" were soldiers. Dragonsoul - 31/05/2010 10:00:14 PM 1294 Views
Acting illegally. snoopcester - 31/05/2010 10:01:31 PM 1319 Views
I guess Americans off the Somali coast boarding vessils the suspect to be pirate ships... Dragonsoul - 31/05/2010 11:16:38 PM 1309 Views
I'm quite sure they have legal permission to board from the owners of those ships *NM* Floffe - 31/05/2010 11:29:08 PM 589 Views
I seriously doubt it. Dragonsoul - 31/05/2010 11:37:53 PM 1388 Views
Wrong boat. *NM* Vodalus - 01/06/2010 01:35:46 AM 606 Views
That's why I said "owners" and not "the guys running it" *NM* Floffe - 01/06/2010 06:39:56 AM 584 Views
And yet most of the pirates own their own boats. Dragonsoul - 01/06/2010 03:50:47 PM 1194 Views
I was talking about the hijacked ships Floffe - 01/06/2010 04:01:02 PM 1300 Views
Aparently it's routine now for militaries to pick up little boats of pirates. Dragonsoul - 01/06/2010 09:26:35 PM 1360 Views
You think boarding ships legally passing through international waters is the same thing? snoopcester - 01/06/2010 03:55:03 PM 1401 Views
I do. Dragonsoul - 01/06/2010 09:30:20 PM 1447 Views
Wrong snoopcester - 02/06/2010 11:47:54 AM 1293 Views
legal seems to be a very fuzzy concept these days random thoughts - 01/06/2010 04:46:47 AM 1230 Views
legal is a fuzzy concept every day... moondog - 01/06/2010 05:43:17 AM 1082 Views
When it comes to international law, it can be applied when you aren't powerful enough Helene - 01/06/2010 07:56:50 AM 1237 Views
International law, in its current incarnation is a sad joke SilverWarder - 03/06/2010 04:24:18 PM 1266 Views
As in Israel does what it likes and the US does the best it can to allow it. snoopcester - 01/06/2010 12:29:20 PM 1233 Views
the ships publicly announced they were going to run the blockade random thoughts - 02/06/2010 01:37:00 AM 1283 Views
Israel should have waited till they were in Israeli waters snoopcester - 02/06/2010 11:57:40 AM 1320 Views
the timing? Israel is not the one who set the timing for the publicity stunt random thoughts - 02/06/2010 03:02:36 PM 1295 Views
i highly doubt european MPs were expecting to be shot at by the IDF moondog - 03/06/2010 03:05:27 AM 1303 Views
sorry but you are still wrong because atleast one of the ships did have a fight witht them random thoughts - 03/06/2010 02:12:10 PM 1339 Views
Israel has no control of the actions of the IDF then? snoopcester - 03/06/2010 01:07:28 PM 1282 Views
"The timing shows, I think, what the Israeli priority is - on a US holiday, again." random thoughts - 03/06/2010 02:22:58 PM 1182 Views
are you for real? random thoughts - 01/06/2010 04:45:21 AM 1282 Views
There was a misunderstanding, and I apologized to Dragonsoul. See above. *NM* Legolas - 01/06/2010 11:13:08 AM 584 Views
Looks like they got what they asked for... Grimbear - 31/05/2010 10:00:53 PM 1186 Views
Oh? snoopcester - 31/05/2010 10:24:09 PM 1390 Views
Re: Oh? Grimbear - 01/06/2010 02:44:15 AM 1444 Views
Ah, I follow that now. snoopcester - 01/06/2010 12:28:22 PM 1270 Views
Re: Ah, I follow that now. Grimbear - 01/06/2010 04:02:48 PM 1444 Views
It's a fair point as far as it goes... Legolas - 01/06/2010 04:37:44 PM 1257 Views
You've seen the video. Dragonsoul - 01/06/2010 09:12:29 PM 1155 Views
Re: It's a fair point as far as it goes... Grimbear - 02/06/2010 12:19:50 AM 1351 Views
When will people ever learn SilverWarder - 02/06/2010 05:58:19 PM 1382 Views
metal pipes and knifes are deadly force random thoughts - 02/06/2010 06:08:57 PM 1307 Views
Re: Ah, I follow that now. snoopcester - 01/06/2010 04:43:32 PM 1228 Views
Again I ask you: Does that make American soldiers who board ships off the Somali coast.... Dragonsoul - 01/06/2010 09:13:35 PM 1303 Views
They are clearly different cases. snoopcester - 02/06/2010 12:00:20 PM 1256 Views
Re: Ah, I follow that now. Grimbear - 02/06/2010 12:38:41 AM 1429 Views
Re: Ah, I follow that now. snoopcester - 02/06/2010 12:18:24 PM 1321 Views
israel offered to take the aid packages because they wanted to keep the non-approved aid moondog - 01/06/2010 01:47:42 AM 1381 Views
I guess it does make things simplier if you just always blame Israel random thoughts - 02/06/2010 01:44:56 AM 1231 Views
i guess it makes things simpler if you don't allow for nuanced positions and take one side moondog - 02/06/2010 01:56:53 AM 1183 Views
I am blind? I am not the one ignoring the facts random thoughts - 02/06/2010 05:29:43 PM 1342 Views
You are however the one who refuses to allow nuances. Legolas - 02/06/2010 06:40:01 PM 1209 Views
which nuances am I ignoring? random thoughts - 02/06/2010 07:37:54 PM 1281 Views
Israel had hours more to go in Floffe - 02/06/2010 07:51:14 PM 1208 Views
Hmm snoopcester - 02/06/2010 08:09:48 PM 1309 Views
so they were scheduled to arive on an American holiday? random thoughts - 02/06/2010 08:52:08 PM 1291 Views
The first one where it has ended in Israeli troops kiling people? snoopcester - 03/06/2010 01:02:12 PM 1218 Views
what would have been the point of waiting? random thoughts - 02/06/2010 08:54:57 PM 1274 Views
if they had waited, they could have claimed the moral high ground that they did everything possible moondog - 03/06/2010 02:24:49 AM 1421 Views
yes because their critics are so open minded random thoughts - 03/06/2010 03:38:46 PM 1182 Views
it is reall simple. who deicded when the ships would sail? random thoughts - 03/06/2010 03:40:54 PM 1179 Views
you are just as close minded as you claim israel's critics to be. moondog - 03/06/2010 04:29:59 PM 1201 Views
refusing to to believe silliness is not being close minded random thoughts - 03/06/2010 05:50:26 PM 1126 Views
you're missing the point again. moondog - 04/06/2010 01:21:50 AM 1230 Views
that is because they really are not very good points random thoughts - 04/06/2010 02:21:53 PM 1323 Views
Re: which nuances am I ignoring? Legolas - 02/06/2010 08:27:20 PM 1271 Views
Re: which nuances am I ignoring? random thoughts - 02/06/2010 09:23:22 PM 1123 Views
Re: which nuances am I ignoring? Legolas - 03/06/2010 10:25:01 AM 1378 Views
Never mind concrete Camilla - 03/06/2010 10:55:36 AM 1259 Views
That is quite understandable snoopcester - 03/06/2010 01:17:42 PM 1282 Views
Re: which nuances am I ignoring? random thoughts - 03/06/2010 03:07:56 PM 1291 Views
Re: which nuances am I ignoring? Legolas - 03/06/2010 07:02:34 PM 1277 Views
don't dismiss the importance of using darkness random thoughts - 03/06/2010 08:17:11 PM 1396 Views
one more thing random thoughts - 03/06/2010 09:08:46 PM 1317 Views
Yes, there were much more people aboard than needed to get the ships where they were going Floffe - 02/06/2010 07:05:26 PM 1253 Views
so who placed those in people in harms way to make a politcal statement? random thoughts - 02/06/2010 07:58:19 PM 1218 Views
Everyone I'm aware of who was on the ships chose to do so themselves Floffe - 02/06/2010 10:13:53 PM 1347 Views
if their stance is non violence then they need to condemn anyone who started the violence random thoughts - 03/06/2010 03:10:46 PM 1226 Views
Many of the people who were onboard have just been released Floffe - 03/06/2010 03:40:26 PM 1190 Views
that is encouraging random thoughts - 03/06/2010 04:07:09 PM 1238 Views
and who made me double post? random thoughts - 02/06/2010 07:58:19 PM 1238 Views
your facts have nothing to do with the discussion in this thread. moondog - 03/06/2010 02:42:06 AM 1194 Views
so everything is Israel's fault. Remoind me again how they came to be in Gaza random thoughts - 03/06/2010 01:55:14 PM 1234 Views
you're being extremist again. it's not very becoming... *NM* moondog - 03/06/2010 04:22:18 PM 511 Views
not believing that Israel can just leave Gaza alone makes me an extremist? random thoughts - 03/06/2010 06:02:15 PM 1169 Views
translating everyting i say into "israel is 100% at fault every time" is being extremist. *NM* moondog - 04/06/2010 01:24:33 AM 573 Views
saying "israel is 100% at fault every time" is being extremist *NM* random thoughts - 04/06/2010 02:13:22 PM 463 Views
*cough* *NM* Camilla - 04/06/2010 02:34:04 PM 536 Views
If the Turks had any balls Aisha - 31/05/2010 09:35:32 PM 1331 Views
Because you know.... Dragonsoul - 31/05/2010 09:44:10 PM 1252 Views
right.... *NM* Aisha - 31/05/2010 09:57:20 PM 680 Views
So they weren't being attacked? Dragonsoul - 31/05/2010 09:58:25 PM 1262 Views
If the Turks had any integrity, they'd own up to their ongoing genocide of the Kurds Tom - 31/05/2010 09:46:53 PM 990 Views
Now you're moving from Turcophobia to blatant fiction. *NM* Legolas - 31/05/2010 09:56:00 PM 580 Views
Fine. How about they own up to their genocide of the Armenians then? Dragonsoul - 31/05/2010 09:57:48 PM 1224 Views
Fair enough stance, but that doesn't justify Tom making things up. "Ongoing genocide" is nonsense. *NM* Legolas - 31/05/2010 10:16:53 PM 561 Views
the Turks are assholes in regards to their complete denial of the past (Armenia, kurds) Aisha - 31/05/2010 09:56:29 PM 1361 Views
wait a second...... "ongoing genocide of the Kurds" Aisha - 31/05/2010 09:59:18 PM 1470 Views
No. Legolas - 31/05/2010 10:09:15 PM 1390 Views
Yes, for both you and Legolas, allow me to share the following: Tom - 31/05/2010 10:16:18 PM 1556 Views
That's not "ongoing". Legolas - 31/05/2010 10:29:36 PM 1240 Views
The fact that it happened within the past five years is recent enough for me. Tom - 01/06/2010 12:14:24 AM 1343 Views
The absence of anything resembling genocide or massacres dates back a lot longer than that. Legolas - 01/06/2010 12:28:32 AM 1429 Views
You seem to be relying on what happened in the past snoopcester - 31/05/2010 10:34:37 PM 1337 Views
Here's something recent fromSmithsonian. Vodalus - 01/06/2010 01:09:58 AM 1152 Views
Uh-oh. Ocalan just announced he's abandoning efforts to seek dialogue with Turkey. Vodalus - 01/06/2010 04:48:24 AM 1432 Views
I don't know how closely you've been following it, but... Legolas - 01/06/2010 11:18:46 AM 1332 Views
UPDATE: Compromise reached BlackAdder - 31/05/2010 11:20:32 PM 1264 Views
lol if only it were that easy *NM* Dragonsoul - 31/05/2010 11:39:06 PM 533 Views
Oh, I wish. Great Lord of Chaos - 31/05/2010 11:41:27 PM 1307 Views
A long time ago a very wise man told me..... Druid - 01/06/2010 12:33:12 AM 1558 Views
Goetic imprecations Vodalus - 01/06/2010 01:34:47 AM 1224 Views
The Turkish response has been making me wonder about something. Vodalus - 01/06/2010 05:38:42 AM 1268 Views
It does make sense. Obama has put alot of effort into renewing the peace process AgentOrange - 01/06/2010 07:14:40 AM 1311 Views
I really doubt it. Legolas - 01/06/2010 11:24:45 AM 1514 Views
Russian websites have speculated it was intentional Turkish provocation. Tom - 01/06/2010 02:04:39 PM 1325 Views
FREE CYPRUS! Tom - 01/06/2010 08:18:44 PM 1182 Views
There's an Irish boat currently en route Stephen - 02/06/2010 12:06:44 PM 1180 Views
Here is some video of the innocent victims attacking the IDF random thoughts - 02/06/2010 06:03:33 PM 1269 Views
you're still posting video released by the IDF to prove the IDF's case. moondog - 03/06/2010 03:01:16 AM 1295 Views
Doesn't really matter SilverWarder - 03/06/2010 01:16:35 PM 1238 Views
dude lookat that camera angle and tell me who was shooting it random thoughts - 03/06/2010 02:08:02 PM 1238 Views
look at who posted that video and tell me a longer version exists moondog - 03/06/2010 04:21:26 PM 1287 Views
so the IDF is guilty until proven innocent? random thoughts - 03/06/2010 04:24:45 PM 1218 Views
as i said to you before. if you are found running from a crime did you commit that crime? moondog - 03/06/2010 04:34:14 PM 1153 Views
have you not seen the footage of the men being attacked as they came off of the helicopter? random thoughts - 03/06/2010 05:51:47 PM 1060 Views
Did you even watch the video? SilverWarder - 03/06/2010 09:07:45 PM 1442 Views
i've seen both videos, and they both begin in the middle of the confrontation moondog - 04/06/2010 01:28:24 AM 1243 Views
No, they don't SilverWarder - 04/06/2010 05:58:40 AM 1094 Views
actually, yes they do. but you will obviously not understand so i am done. *NM* moondog - 04/06/2010 07:53:40 AM 466 Views
I think his point Camilla - 04/06/2010 02:40:43 PM 1260 Views
Oh, I get that SilverWarder - 04/06/2010 03:18:36 PM 1420 Views
Re: Oh, I get that Camilla - 04/06/2010 03:25:05 PM 1317 Views
Re: Oh, I get that SilverWarder - 04/06/2010 04:43:35 PM 1198 Views
Re: Oh, I get that Camilla - 04/06/2010 04:58:04 PM 1224 Views
Not what I said SilverWarder - 04/06/2010 05:38:30 PM 1316 Views
Re: Not what I said Camilla - 04/06/2010 05:41:06 PM 1242 Views
Re: Not what I said SilverWarder - 04/06/2010 05:53:16 PM 1194 Views
Re: Not what I said Camilla - 04/06/2010 05:57:34 PM 1165 Views
Still not understanding SilverWarder - 04/06/2010 06:16:04 PM 1124 Views
Re: Still not understanding Camilla - 04/06/2010 06:17:34 PM 1229 Views
Nothing wrong with being special SilverWarder - 04/06/2010 06:43:27 PM 1222 Views
Re: Nothing wrong with being special Camilla - 04/06/2010 06:45:29 PM 1344 Views
That's silly SilverWarder - 03/06/2010 04:28:34 PM 1330 Views
i know the helicopters were not gunships, but there is such a thing as aggressive flying moondog - 03/06/2010 04:32:18 PM 1217 Views
aggressive flying???? what does that even mean? random thoughts - 03/06/2010 05:57:09 PM 1055 Views
You've GOT to be joking SilverWarder - 03/06/2010 09:02:35 PM 1237 Views
i've already conceded the point, there is no need for insults please moondog - 04/06/2010 01:30:08 AM 1230 Views
When I insult you - don't worry, you'll know SilverWarder - 04/06/2010 06:02:25 AM 1108 Views
yes i want to watch "boring helicopter flying" moondog - 04/06/2010 07:51:16 AM 1276 Views
Re: yes i want to watch "boring helicopter flying" SilverWarder - 04/06/2010 04:39:15 PM 1230 Views
the point moondog - 04/06/2010 06:07:46 PM 1114 Views
Well this should sort out part of the dispute SilverWarder - 04/06/2010 06:56:17 PM 1104 Views
Re: Well this should sort out part of the dispute Camilla - 04/06/2010 07:03:15 PM 1174 Views
Interesting, but not surprising SilverWarder - 04/06/2010 07:10:41 PM 1206 Views
Re: Interesting, but not surprising Camilla - 04/06/2010 07:14:51 PM 1214 Views
They have to bite though - that's the problem SilverWarder - 04/06/2010 08:24:17 PM 1218 Views
Re: They have to bite though - that's the problem Camilla - 04/06/2010 08:27:17 PM 1256 Views
Only if they want to maintain the blockade, which they shouldn't. Legolas - 04/06/2010 11:37:40 PM 1258 Views
I kind of doubt that the Israelis killed by Iranian rockets would be for lifting it. SilverWarder - 05/06/2010 06:27:05 AM 1298 Views
Dead people aren't generally for anything, I dare say. Legolas - 05/06/2010 10:38:54 AM 1335 Views
Might be a plan SilverWarder - 06/06/2010 12:28:36 AM 1274 Views
almost all weapons smuggled into gaza come from the tunnels under the current land barriers moondog - 06/06/2010 12:54:12 AM 1214 Views
Mmmhmmmm SilverWarder - 07/06/2010 08:25:09 AM 1186 Views
are you so blinded to think it would not be paraded as proof the blockade is working? moondog - 07/06/2010 08:48:25 AM 1232 Views
You should really Google before making such statements SilverWarder - 07/06/2010 08:50:52 PM 1565 Views
interesting how only one of those was direct to gaza. and that was in 2001.... moondog - 07/06/2010 11:45:14 PM 1096 Views
First you say that there was nothing SilverWarder - 08/06/2010 05:30:29 AM 1043 Views
after this i am done moondog - 08/06/2010 07:31:18 AM 1341 Views
Fine with me - see here's the thing SilverWarder - 08/06/2010 03:01:04 PM 1318 Views
sounds like you think the blockade is working random thoughts - 07/06/2010 02:13:36 PM 1331 Views
what is it that you think the blockade is designed to do? moondog - 07/06/2010 04:25:39 PM 1268 Views
I would guess it has two main goals random thoughts - 07/06/2010 09:01:03 PM 1256 Views
well, here's how i see it, and i know we're probably going to disagree... moondog - 08/06/2010 02:02:32 AM 1782 Views
What you describe might well work - but only for westerners SilverWarder - 08/06/2010 03:11:34 PM 1322 Views
that would be treating this like an insurgency where you want to win hearts and minds random thoughts - 08/06/2010 05:11:39 PM 1808 Views
That's rather scary. Legolas - 04/06/2010 11:41:11 PM 1299 Views
Re: That's rather scary. Camilla - 05/06/2010 08:45:25 AM 1228 Views
And then there is this Camilla - 04/06/2010 07:04:50 PM 1258 Views
this really angers me *NM* Aisha - 04/06/2010 11:05:52 PM 676 Views
You are so silly. snoopcester - 05/06/2010 12:36:57 AM 1281 Views
That is good to know Camilla - 05/06/2010 08:46:56 AM 1333 Views
what do you want to bet who started the violence suddenly won't matter random thoughts - 04/06/2010 07:07:17 PM 1260 Views
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