Active Users:1146 Time:22/11/2024 01:52:42 PM
Re: which nuances am I ignoring? random thoughts Send a noteboard - 03/06/2010 03:07:56 PM
They were offered to be allowed to bring the ships into an Israeli port and have them inspected but they refused. I guess you can argue that making a political against the blockade is a means to bring in more aid but they could have gotten the majority of what was on those ships through without the drama and loss of life. I have not heard any reports of there being items on the ships that would not have been allowed to enter legally.

Exactly, they want to make a political statement against the blockade, so it's not good enough if Israel offers to let the aid in this time but continues the blockade.

As for items that would not have been allowed in, I understand they were carrying some concrete and other building materials, which Israel refuses to let through because it can be used for military purposes as well as civilian ones. Oh, and they were carrying toys. Why are toys banned, you will ask? Who knows, but they are. As is chocolate, apparently. See link.


I could see some toys because some actually have pretty advanced electronics in them. Remember Hussein buying up all of the play stations to pull the chips out. The Us government even did it because it is cheaper then simply buying the chips. As for the rest I agree there is no real reason and the blockade is clearly designed to increase the suffering the civilian population which is wrong and should be stopped. It is has also been the goal of most naval blockades in history but that is no reason the practice should continue.

I am not ignoring that. I do draw distinctions. If the IDF had killed people on the ships they were not attacked on then I would join in criticizing them. The people on the other ships were not killed. I heard some reports that some of them were knocked around but they also used water canons on the troops as they approached so it is hardly surprising that a few of them got handled roughly. It looks like the other ships still need a little training on what non-violent protesting really means.

Okay then.

Have they in any way condemned the actions of that group or placed any of the blame of violence on them? I have them interviewed several times and I have not heard even a hint that they felt the people attacking the troops were at fault. I have even heard them admit that the troops were attacked.

They haven't exactly had much time for that yet. I don't know if they will, either, if they do it probably won't be now at the height of the scandal. So I guess rather than public condemnations, I expect to see them not cooperating with that group anymore.


I disagree that they have not had time. I have heard several of them in interviews and I they have not once suggested that any sprinkle of blame lies anywhere but with Israel.

I have always thought of you as being level headed for a European;) I am not sure what you are referring to when you say I don't believe it is genuine. If you may that it is genuine that Israel has often behaved badly then I believe that. If you are talking about the anti-Israel feelings in Europe then I guess I am wrong because I think it mostly just anti-Israeli thinking. Europeans seem to be able over look all sorts of bad actions by others but for someone reason they want to focus all of their energy on condemning Israel. I would like to think it is out of the deep love Europeans have for the Palestinian people but I really don't believe that to be true since they never showed much signs of it before and seem more concerned with being against something then anything else. Sort of like Iraq, they didn't really seem to be concerned what was happening there until it became a chance to be criticize the US.

Yes, I meant that that somewhat naive stance on Israel is genuine. Obviously it's hard to make generalizations. In Muslim circles in Europe, there will be some - definitely not all, and I think far less than a majority, but some - who are genuinely anti-Semitic. In Eastern Europe, there's a number of disgusting political parties who are anti-Semite as well as racist towards the Roma (gypsies) and other minorities. And among the European extreme right, there are some Holocaust deniers, which in most cases is linked with anti-Semitism as well.


Sorry but look at history. For hundreds of years Europeans have repressed and abused the Jews up to the point where millions were exterminated during living memory. Te Jews formed their own nation and those same Europeans happen to really hate the country the Jews formed. Now the Europeans claim it has nothing to do with the century old hatred of the Jews but they instead give a laundry list of all new reasons to hate the nation formed by the Jews. Now there are countless nations in the world much worse then the nation formed by the Jews but it is still the Jewish nation that really gets them worked up. The Europeans have convinced themselves that their current hatred for the Jewish nation has absolutely nothing to do with their grandparents hatred for the Jewish people but to me it sounds like the same kind of thinking that gave the US separate but equal. Prejudice do not disappear simply because you can rationalize them.

Simply put with Europe history with the Jews it is either one of the greatest coincident in history that the Jewish nation just happens to be one of the most hated by Europeans or y’all are in serious denial. I am not a bigger believer in coincidence and less some when the ones claiming the coincident has the track record Europe does. I know Europe thinks it hit a big reset button and erased its history but it still shapes who you are.

But for the general population, it is what I said. I've told you before what those reasons are why they focus so much on Israel when there are so many other conflicts - the fact that Israel is a Western country (which is also why they focused so much on the US invading Iraq), and the fact that the Jewish people was victimized in the Holocaust. The concept of a victimized country (to the extent you can say that, obviously the Israeli establishment of 1948 and that generation had not suffered in the Holocaust itself) becoming an oppressor itself, finding itself forced to use harsh methods, that is very disturbing for a pacifist worldview. None of that is about anti-Semitism, it's about anti-Zionism.

I am not ignoring his point I just don't think it is valid. If I bought a ship tomorrow and announced publicly that I was going to illegally sail it Ireland and unload it without going through customs do you believe they would wait for me to enter heir water to stop me? Of course not. I have pointed out repeatedly that despite all of the noise about legality ships are boarded in international waters on a regular basis. So I didn't ignore the nuance but I have yet to see anyone make a convincing argument that their actions were illegal.


But still so many non Jew hating Europeans fixate on Israel and for the most part ignore countries such Russia and Turkey who have their own serious human rights issues and who are under nowhere near the threats as Israel is.

Actually, I rather think they would. Within their own waters the legal side of things is simple and clear-cut, whereas in international waters the whole thing becomes a lot more, well, international. Not to mention that it's obviously more practical to stay within their own waters and not have to go so far.


Come on the distance is not an issue with modern navies and would actually make things easier to handle since there is less threat of small boats from shore interfering and in this case wanting to come in at 4AM was likely the biggest consideration.

Answer me this. Do you really believe the reaction would be different if they had waited?

Dozen of ships will boarded this week in the Gulf of Mexico by US ships in international waters. It is a pretty common practice.

I consider them separate issues. I have nowhere defended the blockade and I consider the main argument here to be who is responsible for the violence. If you say it is Israel simply because there should have been blockade then I would say there would be no blockade if were not for Hammas attacking Israel and you would say Hammas would not attack Israel citizens if it were not for ..... Goes on forever so the real issue who started the violence this time and how is to be held accountable for it. If the people on the ship who are attacked the IDF are to blame do we really want to encourage that sort of behavior by giving them what they want?

We don't want to encourage that sort of behaviour, no, but neither do we want to give the impression that the blockade is acceptable. On the issue of who is responsible for the violence we don't really disagree, if that's the only thing you want to argue about. :P I've thought from the beginning that the Israeli troops weren't remotely stupid enough to open fire unless they had no choice. Not against foreign activists, anyway.


Me and you do not disagree but I would argue that there are others here who don't agree with us.

Edit: forgot link


I think what we are really missing here is who won in this mess and the answer is the Turkish government who sent the ships. Since Turkey was so instrumental in setting things up and it was Turks who caused things to go so badly and the Muslim government in Turkey is looking to gain significantly from this situation I think people need to start asking Turkey some sharp questions and not just play into their hands and use is an opportunity to kick Israel.
Reply to message
Israeli attack on aid convoy - 31/05/2010 10:21:02 AM 2577 Views
Seems a bit of a mess. - 31/05/2010 11:09:04 AM 1262 Views
Re: Seems a bit of a mess. - 31/05/2010 05:14:45 PM 1255 Views
Israel was in a no win situation - 31/05/2010 12:09:13 PM 1482 Views
And Mr Hague has just made his 1st mistake - 31/05/2010 12:26:28 PM 1514 Views
you do realize israel had plenty of options to deter the boats other than opening fire on them? - 31/05/2010 06:20:03 PM 1579 Views
do you realize they didn't open fire on the ship? - 31/05/2010 07:51:53 PM 1211 Views
supposedly the boat being boarded shouted "we are raising the white flag, stop shooting" - 31/05/2010 07:54:49 PM 1443 Views
Why is it that the Israelis are routinely not believed and the Palestinian extremists are? - 31/05/2010 08:17:09 PM 1465 Views
probably because israel has a history of opening fire on people they don't agree with? - 31/05/2010 08:26:19 PM 1355 Views
And the Palestinians don't? And obnoxious Turks don't? *NM* - 31/05/2010 09:02:20 PM 521 Views
this was not a palestinian boat - 31/05/2010 09:09:47 PM 1348 Views
I'm aware of that. But there were some Palestinians on board from what I read. - 31/05/2010 10:03:59 PM 1277 Views
And a holocaust survivor and a Scottish journalist. Quite the mixed bag, really. *NM* - 31/05/2010 10:04:52 PM 572 Views
No it was TURKS!!!!!!!!! - 31/05/2010 11:09:49 PM 1310 Views
supposed by who? - 31/05/2010 08:47:47 PM 1565 Views
From what I heard, 11 dead. - 31/05/2010 12:26:59 PM 1340 Views
Norwegian news is saying "at least 19" - 31/05/2010 12:29:14 PM 1258 Views
It's a PR disaster, surely. - 31/05/2010 12:31:50 PM 1321 Views
What Legolas said... - 31/05/2010 01:56:56 PM 1390 Views
To be fair: they said they'd never let the flotilla through so what did people expect? *NM* - 31/05/2010 02:01:10 PM 588 Views
A) No killings, and B) No open sea piracy. - 31/05/2010 02:23:28 PM 1343 Views
Enforcing a blockade isn't piracy, and violence was a predictable result. *NM* - 31/05/2010 02:35:35 PM 576 Views
That defense gets sketchy if it was in international waters. *NM* - 31/05/2010 02:37:00 PM 575 Views
Why? Because of international "law"? I doubt the US will agree to do anything to Israel. *NM* - 31/05/2010 02:55:29 PM 591 Views
And in turn I doubt China will agree to do anything about Iran. - 31/05/2010 05:18:59 PM 1134 Views
Not likely. - 31/05/2010 05:37:42 PM 1306 Views
Interestingly enough, one of our problems with China seemd to vanish from the news... - 01/06/2010 02:02:35 AM 1185 Views
Nice catch. - 01/06/2010 09:56:03 AM 1368 Views
A little digging around has turned up a few nuggets. - 01/06/2010 10:12:10 PM 1317 Views
*shrug* Your opinions are not worth water in this question. - 31/05/2010 03:05:31 PM 1377 Views
Sure, whatever. *NM* - 31/05/2010 05:38:23 PM 583 Views
ships are boarded in international waters all of the time *NM* - 31/05/2010 07:53:53 PM 529 Views
Yes, but then the pirates are hunted down and shot by the russians. *NM* - 31/05/2010 09:15:52 PM 483 Views
in this case it was Israel that hunt them down and shot them *NM* - 01/06/2010 04:34:19 AM 567 Views
No, those would be the pirates. *NM* - 01/06/2010 10:03:37 AM 626 Views
no those would be tghe radicals that got them selfs killed trying to run a blockade. *NM* - 02/06/2010 01:42:23 AM 633 Views
What ship did they board? *NM* - 02/06/2010 01:42:17 PM 609 Views
It is impressive that you are still trying - 02/06/2010 02:59:02 PM 1311 Views
no it is just a stupid and inaccurate analogy - 02/06/2010 03:05:32 PM 1332 Views
Well, that are two concepts that you are intimately familiar with... - 02/06/2010 07:30:07 PM 1450 Views
and talking with you only makes me more familar with the issues - 02/06/2010 07:41:20 PM 1222 Views
Calling me a Jew-hater now? - 02/06/2010 08:23:08 PM 1412 Views
you compare Israel to North Korea and want to talk about stupid - 02/06/2010 08:34:03 PM 1114 Views
Propaganda is propaganda. You're the one who chooses to believe in it. *NM* - 02/06/2010 10:13:42 PM 580 Views
thats funny coming from you *NM* - 03/06/2010 02:08:41 PM 610 Views
Indeed. *NM* - 31/05/2010 04:30:11 PM 637 Views
Um, I know what I expected: that they wouldn't kill anyone. *NM* - 31/05/2010 04:02:38 PM 561 Views
Ideally, that wouldn't have happened. But when are real life situations ever ideal? - 31/05/2010 04:29:50 PM 1336 Views
That's a bit of a meager excuse. - 31/05/2010 04:42:35 PM 1369 Views
It's not an excuse, more of a "they were warned". *NM* - 31/05/2010 04:52:39 PM 593 Views
This won't change anything - 31/05/2010 06:04:54 PM 1265 Views
Re: This won't change anything - 31/05/2010 06:13:36 PM 1241 Views
Here's the link. - 31/05/2010 06:44:06 PM 1202 Views
America and Turkey are military allies, so they do care. - 31/05/2010 06:14:21 PM 1443 Views
yes and that alliance came in so handy back in 2003 - 31/05/2010 07:50:12 PM 1286 Views
That nearly all went extremely wrong. - 31/05/2010 08:20:41 PM 1474 Views
Yes...why are we allied with a country like that? - 31/05/2010 08:22:12 PM 1201 Views
Positioning - 31/05/2010 08:54:56 PM 1445 Views
Question - 31/05/2010 10:00:43 PM 1318 Views
The Turkish people is certainly quite anti-American - 31/05/2010 11:26:37 PM 1407 Views
I thought we were talking Government policy? - 01/06/2010 12:21:53 PM 1391 Views
Re: I thought we were talking Government policy? - 01/06/2010 05:18:56 PM 1429 Views
The Israelis warned them. If they resisted violently they knew they would/could get shot dead. - 31/05/2010 02:34:38 PM 1378 Views
Most likely true. - 31/05/2010 03:06:55 PM 1330 Views
An Israeli friend on fb - 31/05/2010 04:15:32 PM 1228 Views
That sounds like utter nonsense. *NM* - 31/05/2010 04:18:06 PM 658 Views
Because? *NM* - 31/05/2010 04:18:45 PM 504 Views
The Israeli army would know better than to send soldiers with paintball guns - 31/05/2010 04:20:52 PM 1310 Views
Maybe "paintball guns" is a way of saying non-lethal guns - 31/05/2010 04:25:05 PM 1382 Views
actiually, it is *NM* - 01/06/2010 08:19:02 PM 704 Views
Because soldiers going into a dangerous situation don't carry paintball guns - 31/05/2010 04:21:50 PM 1313 Views
you can't fire rubber bullets on a ship - 31/05/2010 05:17:31 PM 1261 Views
Generalization - 31/05/2010 05:22:58 PM 1225 Views
I highly doubt they held paintball guns. - 31/05/2010 05:01:15 PM 1393 Views
Not least if one goes on the latest accounts coming out - 31/05/2010 05:07:46 PM 1301 Views
I see, this may have caused the confusion... - 01/06/2010 04:19:22 PM 1278 Views
Actually, some Israeli military sources are saying that some commandos had paintball guns - 01/06/2010 04:53:12 PM 1375 Views
Paintball weapons? Weird. They don't hurt nad enough to incapacitate. - 02/06/2010 01:32:33 AM 1323 Views
Plus they have a tendency to jam. - 02/06/2010 11:46:18 AM 1250 Views
It sucks, but I don't think the Israelis really had any choice. - 31/05/2010 04:20:07 PM 1366 Views
two points of criticism - 31/05/2010 06:50:31 PM 1200 Views
Those could be valid. - 02/06/2010 05:45:35 PM 1474 Views
On the blockade... - 02/06/2010 06:06:24 PM 1301 Views
three years is the number I keep seeing - 02/06/2010 06:22:05 PM 1283 Views
So what do you think would've happened if Israel hadn't tried to stop the convoy? - 02/06/2010 06:47:52 PM 1349 Views
your rationale assumes people would have believed them - 02/06/2010 07:05:34 PM 1335 Views
Of course it does. - 02/06/2010 08:00:34 PM 1274 Views
how? - 02/06/2010 08:50:21 PM 1357 Views
Two pistols? - 02/06/2010 07:06:35 PM 1282 Views
pipes were last minute? there is video of them using them before the ships were even boarded - 02/06/2010 07:43:06 PM 1223 Views
There is footage of them preparing them before the Israeli forces arrived? - 02/06/2010 07:46:26 PM 1278 Views
look at the link I posted at the bottom - 02/06/2010 08:03:18 PM 1253 Views
Perhaps you linked the wrong one? - 03/06/2010 01:13:33 PM 1084 Views
you argument requires we believe they were surprised the IDF showed up - 03/06/2010 01:59:07 PM 1267 Views
You require we don't know much about ships or common sense - 03/06/2010 02:16:25 PM 1182 Views
Okay folks - ease off - 03/06/2010 03:04:18 PM 1214 Views
the naval blockade has been firmly in place for the last 3-ish years, but.... - 03/06/2010 02:48:11 AM 1346 Views
I'm a bit confused by what you're saying about Egypt. - 03/06/2010 09:53:27 AM 1220 Views
confused by which part? - 03/06/2010 04:15:22 PM 1302 Views
Other sources don't agree - 03/06/2010 04:29:03 PM 1186 Views
I understood that Egypt was for it? - 03/06/2010 01:15:58 PM 1196 Views
see the article i linked to in reply to legolas *NM* - 03/06/2010 04:17:08 PM 565 Views
So Israel has committed international piracy so it can keep up the collective punishment of children - 31/05/2010 04:52:40 PM 1441 Views
Darn! You posted "stay classy" first. - 31/05/2010 05:04:08 PM 1208 Views
Muahahahahaha! - 31/05/2010 05:05:20 PM 1310 Views
I don't get the reference - 31/05/2010 05:14:41 PM 1191 Views
How does that even make sense ? - 01/06/2010 07:17:26 AM 1323 Views
I was talking in general terms - 01/06/2010 12:24:12 PM 1235 Views
The UN treaty does not class this as piracy - 02/06/2010 06:10:35 PM 1393 Views
Interesting - I guess I need to rephrase to them acting like pirates - 02/06/2010 06:58:18 PM 1266 Views
It's more some kind of violation of sovreign soil I expect - 02/06/2010 08:04:11 PM 1399 Views
Seems so - 03/06/2010 01:00:54 PM 1104 Views
I don't really have a bone in this fight - 31/05/2010 04:54:59 PM 1436 Views
And exactly how would you suggest doing this 'disabling'? - 31/05/2010 05:02:21 PM 1161 Views
They do have the equivalent of SEALS I would imagine. - 31/05/2010 05:08:50 PM 1259 Views
They certainly do - 31/05/2010 05:34:14 PM 1282 Views
Pretty easy actually - 31/05/2010 05:14:34 PM 1178 Views
No it ain't - 31/05/2010 05:27:39 PM 1258 Views
Sure it is - 31/05/2010 05:44:16 PM 1185 Views
Movies vs. Reality - 01/06/2010 02:54:13 AM 1218 Views
Lesson: Don't try and run a blockade manned by people who are better armed than you. - 31/05/2010 05:40:16 PM 1253 Views
America isn't blockading Cuba - 31/05/2010 05:55:23 PM 1306 Views
Fine, change Venezuelan to American and it's the same thing. - 31/05/2010 05:59:50 PM 1298 Views
Dude. There is no blockade. There are no American ships surrounding Cuba. *NM* - 31/05/2010 06:04:22 PM 531 Views
Oh. Geeze I always thought the Americans had ships preventing vessils from reaching Cuba. - 31/05/2010 06:18:42 PM 1230 Views
Only in 1961. - 01/06/2010 10:02:59 AM 1332 Views
I'm not sure if the US physically enforces it - 31/05/2010 06:11:57 PM 1188 Views
Well I'm not American. - 31/05/2010 06:21:15 PM 1291 Views
Europe and Canada trade plenty with Cuba - and go on holidays there. - 31/05/2010 06:29:33 PM 1276 Views
No no I know. - 31/05/2010 06:41:55 PM 1341 Views
The point of that - 31/05/2010 06:42:46 PM 1164 Views
Yeah see I thought they did that with force of arms. - 31/05/2010 07:09:08 PM 1225 Views
No the restrictions apply only to US Citizens - 31/05/2010 08:44:44 PM 1212 Views
I find it odd that innocent unarmed civilians can seriously injure armed commandos - 31/05/2010 06:47:55 PM 1308 Views
How dare you cloud the issue with facts! *NM* - 31/05/2010 07:57:18 PM 517 Views
i never saw where they were called unarmed? - 31/05/2010 08:33:03 PM 1280 Views
so they were armed relief workers? - 31/05/2010 08:54:29 PM 1270 Views
Turkey has threatened to send military vessels with future aid convoys. - 31/05/2010 07:50:54 PM 1382 Views
If they do that, we should kick them out of NATO. - 31/05/2010 07:56:47 PM 1396 Views
We can only hope. *NM* - 31/05/2010 08:02:16 PM 567 Views
Not entirely necessary. - 31/05/2010 08:30:09 PM 1395 Views
UPDATE: Proof that IDF soldiers were attacked as they boarded the Turkish ship - 31/05/2010 09:23:02 PM 1398 Views
"Violent, extremist attack"? Are you for real? - 31/05/2010 09:29:43 PM 1323 Views
What else would you call it? - 31/05/2010 09:43:01 PM 1284 Views
Okay, in that case it's more justified. Sorry. - 31/05/2010 09:45:18 PM 1352 Views
Attempting to repel boarders? Or is that to unbiased a term for you? - 31/05/2010 09:56:31 PM 1195 Views
Except these "armed pirates" were soldiers. - 31/05/2010 10:00:14 PM 1292 Views
Acting illegally. - 31/05/2010 10:01:31 PM 1319 Views
I guess Americans off the Somali coast boarding vessils the suspect to be pirate ships... - 31/05/2010 11:16:38 PM 1308 Views
I'm quite sure they have legal permission to board from the owners of those ships *NM* - 31/05/2010 11:29:08 PM 589 Views
I seriously doubt it. - 31/05/2010 11:37:53 PM 1388 Views
Wrong boat. *NM* - 01/06/2010 01:35:46 AM 606 Views
That's why I said "owners" and not "the guys running it" *NM* - 01/06/2010 06:39:56 AM 584 Views
And yet most of the pirates own their own boats. - 01/06/2010 03:50:47 PM 1193 Views
I was talking about the hijacked ships - 01/06/2010 04:01:02 PM 1300 Views
You think boarding ships legally passing through international waters is the same thing? - 01/06/2010 03:55:03 PM 1400 Views
I do. - 01/06/2010 09:30:20 PM 1446 Views
Wrong - 02/06/2010 11:47:54 AM 1293 Views
legal seems to be a very fuzzy concept these days - 01/06/2010 04:46:47 AM 1229 Views
legal is a fuzzy concept every day... - 01/06/2010 05:43:17 AM 1082 Views
As in Israel does what it likes and the US does the best it can to allow it. - 01/06/2010 12:29:20 PM 1232 Views
the ships publicly announced they were going to run the blockade - 02/06/2010 01:37:00 AM 1282 Views
Israel should have waited till they were in Israeli waters - 02/06/2010 11:57:40 AM 1319 Views
the timing? Israel is not the one who set the timing for the publicity stunt - 02/06/2010 03:02:36 PM 1295 Views
Israel has no control of the actions of the IDF then? - 03/06/2010 01:07:28 PM 1282 Views
are you for real? - 01/06/2010 04:45:21 AM 1280 Views
Looks like they got what they asked for... - 31/05/2010 10:00:53 PM 1186 Views
Oh? - 31/05/2010 10:24:09 PM 1388 Views
Re: Oh? - 01/06/2010 02:44:15 AM 1442 Views
Ah, I follow that now. - 01/06/2010 12:28:22 PM 1269 Views
Re: Ah, I follow that now. - 01/06/2010 04:02:48 PM 1444 Views
It's a fair point as far as it goes... - 01/06/2010 04:37:44 PM 1256 Views
You've seen the video. - 01/06/2010 09:12:29 PM 1155 Views
Re: It's a fair point as far as it goes... - 02/06/2010 12:19:50 AM 1349 Views
When will people ever learn - 02/06/2010 05:58:19 PM 1382 Views
metal pipes and knifes are deadly force - 02/06/2010 06:08:57 PM 1307 Views
Re: Ah, I follow that now. - 01/06/2010 04:43:32 PM 1227 Views
Again I ask you: Does that make American soldiers who board ships off the Somali coast.... - 01/06/2010 09:13:35 PM 1303 Views
They are clearly different cases. - 02/06/2010 12:00:20 PM 1255 Views
Re: Ah, I follow that now. - 02/06/2010 12:38:41 AM 1427 Views
Re: Ah, I follow that now. - 02/06/2010 12:18:24 PM 1321 Views
israel offered to take the aid packages because they wanted to keep the non-approved aid - 01/06/2010 01:47:42 AM 1380 Views
I guess it does make things simplier if you just always blame Israel - 02/06/2010 01:44:56 AM 1231 Views
i guess it makes things simpler if you don't allow for nuanced positions and take one side - 02/06/2010 01:56:53 AM 1182 Views
I am blind? I am not the one ignoring the facts - 02/06/2010 05:29:43 PM 1341 Views
You are however the one who refuses to allow nuances. - 02/06/2010 06:40:01 PM 1209 Views
which nuances am I ignoring? - 02/06/2010 07:37:54 PM 1280 Views
Israel had hours more to go in - 02/06/2010 07:51:14 PM 1207 Views
Hmm - 02/06/2010 08:09:48 PM 1309 Views
so they were scheduled to arive on an American holiday? - 02/06/2010 08:52:08 PM 1291 Views
The first one where it has ended in Israeli troops kiling people? - 03/06/2010 01:02:12 PM 1218 Views
what would have been the point of waiting? - 02/06/2010 08:54:57 PM 1274 Views
if they had waited, they could have claimed the moral high ground that they did everything possible - 03/06/2010 02:24:49 AM 1421 Views
yes because their critics are so open minded - 03/06/2010 03:38:46 PM 1182 Views
it is reall simple. who deicded when the ships would sail? - 03/06/2010 03:40:54 PM 1179 Views
you are just as close minded as you claim israel's critics to be. - 03/06/2010 04:29:59 PM 1201 Views
refusing to to believe silliness is not being close minded - 03/06/2010 05:50:26 PM 1125 Views
you're missing the point again. - 04/06/2010 01:21:50 AM 1230 Views
that is because they really are not very good points - 04/06/2010 02:21:53 PM 1322 Views
Re: which nuances am I ignoring? - 02/06/2010 08:27:20 PM 1271 Views
Re: which nuances am I ignoring? - 02/06/2010 09:23:22 PM 1123 Views
Re: which nuances am I ignoring? - 03/06/2010 10:25:01 AM 1376 Views
Never mind concrete - 03/06/2010 10:55:36 AM 1258 Views
That is quite understandable - 03/06/2010 01:17:42 PM 1281 Views
Re: which nuances am I ignoring? - 03/06/2010 03:07:56 PM 1291 Views
Re: which nuances am I ignoring? - 03/06/2010 07:02:34 PM 1277 Views
don't dismiss the importance of using darkness - 03/06/2010 08:17:11 PM 1396 Views
one more thing - 03/06/2010 09:08:46 PM 1316 Views
Yes, there were much more people aboard than needed to get the ships where they were going - 02/06/2010 07:05:26 PM 1253 Views
so who placed those in people in harms way to make a politcal statement? - 02/06/2010 07:58:19 PM 1218 Views
Everyone I'm aware of who was on the ships chose to do so themselves - 02/06/2010 10:13:53 PM 1347 Views
if their stance is non violence then they need to condemn anyone who started the violence - 03/06/2010 03:10:46 PM 1225 Views
Many of the people who were onboard have just been released - 03/06/2010 03:40:26 PM 1190 Views
that is encouraging - 03/06/2010 04:07:09 PM 1238 Views
and who made me double post? - 02/06/2010 07:58:19 PM 1238 Views
your facts have nothing to do with the discussion in this thread. - 03/06/2010 02:42:06 AM 1194 Views
so everything is Israel's fault. Remoind me again how they came to be in Gaza - 03/06/2010 01:55:14 PM 1233 Views
you're being extremist again. it's not very becoming... *NM* - 03/06/2010 04:22:18 PM 511 Views
not believing that Israel can just leave Gaza alone makes me an extremist? - 03/06/2010 06:02:15 PM 1167 Views
translating everyting i say into "israel is 100% at fault every time" is being extremist. *NM* - 04/06/2010 01:24:33 AM 573 Views
saying "israel is 100% at fault every time" is being extremist *NM* - 04/06/2010 02:13:22 PM 463 Views
*cough* *NM* - 04/06/2010 02:34:04 PM 536 Views
If the Turks had any balls - 31/05/2010 09:35:32 PM 1331 Views
Because you know.... - 31/05/2010 09:44:10 PM 1252 Views
right.... *NM* - 31/05/2010 09:57:20 PM 680 Views
So they weren't being attacked? - 31/05/2010 09:58:25 PM 1261 Views
If the Turks had any integrity, they'd own up to their ongoing genocide of the Kurds - 31/05/2010 09:46:53 PM 990 Views
wait a second...... "ongoing genocide of the Kurds" - 31/05/2010 09:59:18 PM 1470 Views
No. - 31/05/2010 10:09:15 PM 1390 Views
Yes, for both you and Legolas, allow me to share the following: - 31/05/2010 10:16:18 PM 1555 Views
That's not "ongoing". - 31/05/2010 10:29:36 PM 1240 Views
You seem to be relying on what happened in the past - 31/05/2010 10:34:37 PM 1336 Views
Here's something recent fromSmithsonian. - 01/06/2010 01:09:58 AM 1151 Views
UPDATE: Compromise reached - 31/05/2010 11:20:32 PM 1264 Views
lol if only it were that easy *NM* - 31/05/2010 11:39:06 PM 533 Views
Oh, I wish. - 31/05/2010 11:41:27 PM 1307 Views
A long time ago a very wise man told me..... - 01/06/2010 12:33:12 AM 1558 Views
Goetic imprecations - 01/06/2010 01:34:47 AM 1223 Views
The Turkish response has been making me wonder about something. - 01/06/2010 05:38:42 AM 1267 Views
I really doubt it. - 01/06/2010 11:24:45 AM 1513 Views
FREE CYPRUS! - 01/06/2010 08:18:44 PM 1182 Views
There's an Irish boat currently en route - 02/06/2010 12:06:44 PM 1180 Views
Here is some video of the innocent victims attacking the IDF - 02/06/2010 06:03:33 PM 1268 Views
you're still posting video released by the IDF to prove the IDF's case. - 03/06/2010 03:01:16 AM 1295 Views
Doesn't really matter - 03/06/2010 01:16:35 PM 1238 Views
dude lookat that camera angle and tell me who was shooting it - 03/06/2010 02:08:02 PM 1236 Views
look at who posted that video and tell me a longer version exists - 03/06/2010 04:21:26 PM 1287 Views
so the IDF is guilty until proven innocent? - 03/06/2010 04:24:45 PM 1217 Views
as i said to you before. if you are found running from a crime did you commit that crime? - 03/06/2010 04:34:14 PM 1153 Views
Did you even watch the video? - 03/06/2010 09:07:45 PM 1442 Views
i've seen both videos, and they both begin in the middle of the confrontation - 04/06/2010 01:28:24 AM 1242 Views
No, they don't - 04/06/2010 05:58:40 AM 1093 Views
I think his point - 04/06/2010 02:40:43 PM 1259 Views
Oh, I get that - 04/06/2010 03:18:36 PM 1419 Views
Re: Oh, I get that - 04/06/2010 03:25:05 PM 1317 Views
Re: Oh, I get that - 04/06/2010 04:43:35 PM 1197 Views
Re: Oh, I get that - 04/06/2010 04:58:04 PM 1223 Views
Not what I said - 04/06/2010 05:38:30 PM 1316 Views
Re: Not what I said - 04/06/2010 05:41:06 PM 1241 Views
Re: Not what I said - 04/06/2010 05:53:16 PM 1193 Views
Re: Not what I said - 04/06/2010 05:57:34 PM 1163 Views
Still not understanding - 04/06/2010 06:16:04 PM 1123 Views
Re: Still not understanding - 04/06/2010 06:17:34 PM 1227 Views
Nothing wrong with being special - 04/06/2010 06:43:27 PM 1221 Views
Re: Nothing wrong with being special - 04/06/2010 06:45:29 PM 1344 Views
That's silly - 03/06/2010 04:28:34 PM 1330 Views
i know the helicopters were not gunships, but there is such a thing as aggressive flying - 03/06/2010 04:32:18 PM 1217 Views
aggressive flying???? what does that even mean? - 03/06/2010 05:57:09 PM 1055 Views
You've GOT to be joking - 03/06/2010 09:02:35 PM 1237 Views
i've already conceded the point, there is no need for insults please - 04/06/2010 01:30:08 AM 1230 Views
When I insult you - don't worry, you'll know - 04/06/2010 06:02:25 AM 1105 Views
yes i want to watch "boring helicopter flying" - 04/06/2010 07:51:16 AM 1275 Views
Re: yes i want to watch "boring helicopter flying" - 04/06/2010 04:39:15 PM 1230 Views
the point - 04/06/2010 06:07:46 PM 1113 Views
Well this should sort out part of the dispute - 04/06/2010 06:56:17 PM 1104 Views
Re: Well this should sort out part of the dispute - 04/06/2010 07:03:15 PM 1174 Views
Interesting, but not surprising - 04/06/2010 07:10:41 PM 1206 Views
Re: Interesting, but not surprising - 04/06/2010 07:14:51 PM 1213 Views
They have to bite though - that's the problem - 04/06/2010 08:24:17 PM 1218 Views
Re: They have to bite though - that's the problem - 04/06/2010 08:27:17 PM 1256 Views
Only if they want to maintain the blockade, which they shouldn't. - 04/06/2010 11:37:40 PM 1256 Views
I kind of doubt that the Israelis killed by Iranian rockets would be for lifting it. - 05/06/2010 06:27:05 AM 1298 Views
Dead people aren't generally for anything, I dare say. - 05/06/2010 10:38:54 AM 1334 Views
Might be a plan - 06/06/2010 12:28:36 AM 1273 Views
almost all weapons smuggled into gaza come from the tunnels under the current land barriers - 06/06/2010 12:54:12 AM 1214 Views
Mmmhmmmm - 07/06/2010 08:25:09 AM 1185 Views
are you so blinded to think it would not be paraded as proof the blockade is working? - 07/06/2010 08:48:25 AM 1231 Views
You should really Google before making such statements - 07/06/2010 08:50:52 PM 1563 Views
interesting how only one of those was direct to gaza. and that was in 2001.... - 07/06/2010 11:45:14 PM 1094 Views
First you say that there was nothing - 08/06/2010 05:30:29 AM 1042 Views
after this i am done - 08/06/2010 07:31:18 AM 1340 Views
Fine with me - see here's the thing - 08/06/2010 03:01:04 PM 1317 Views
sounds like you think the blockade is working - 07/06/2010 02:13:36 PM 1330 Views
what is it that you think the blockade is designed to do? - 07/06/2010 04:25:39 PM 1267 Views
I would guess it has two main goals - 07/06/2010 09:01:03 PM 1255 Views
well, here's how i see it, and i know we're probably going to disagree... - 08/06/2010 02:02:32 AM 1781 Views
What you describe might well work - but only for westerners - 08/06/2010 03:11:34 PM 1322 Views
That's rather scary. - 04/06/2010 11:41:11 PM 1299 Views
Re: That's rather scary. - 05/06/2010 08:45:25 AM 1227 Views
And then there is this - 04/06/2010 07:04:50 PM 1257 Views
this really angers me *NM* - 04/06/2010 11:05:52 PM 676 Views
You are so silly. - 05/06/2010 12:36:57 AM 1279 Views
That is good to know - 05/06/2010 08:46:56 AM 1332 Views
what do you want to bet who started the violence suddenly won't matter - 04/06/2010 07:07:17 PM 1260 Views

Reply to Message