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They're low. Too low. Legolas Send a noteboard - 13/05/2010 12:12:29 PM
If you go the American way and charge €20,000, but then offer €20,000 scholarships to the poor, you'll still get mostly rich people because the poor will see the price tag and get scared. And they'll be less likely to apply because they know they can't be assured of getting a scholarship, even if they are clever.

Off the top of my head, something in the vicinity of 600 euros a year. For students with limited financial means, it's reduced to something like 80 euros, though obviously the other costs of studying (transport, room & board, textbooks) are much more significant anyway, so they can get financial support for those things too.

So I was entirely serious when I said double or triple the tuition fees and it'll still be on the cheap side - but perhaps people will take their studies a bit more seriously.

And no, they *are* assured of getting a scholarship, though perhaps scholarship is the wrong word under those circumstances. When I say need-based, what I mean is that everyone who can prove their financial situation is not very good gets the financial support, it's not like there's a limited amount of scholarships or whatever. Cleverness has absolutely nothing to do with it.
I think guaranteed entry to anyone who finishes school, rather than free tuition, is the source of your problem :P. That way people drift into university, rather than setting their heart on getting there and working for it. Then they suddenly discover they don't have to be there as they did with school, and they go nuts.

Pretty much. I'm not a fan of American or British systems that look at secondary school grades, though. First and foremost, it's impossible to compare grades between schools (or hell, in many cases even between teachers within the same school), and it would discourage students from going into the hardest tracks (at my secondary school, grades for mathematics in the most maths-heavy track tended to be little above 60% even for the best students; it makes no sense to compare that to the 90%+ scores easily attained by those in less demanding tracks in terms of mathematics). And besides that, what with puberty and all, there's bound to be loads of students whose grades in secondary school have some irregularities or periods that they're awful, which says little about their ability to do well in university.

No, if I had to choose, I'd go with entrance exams - might be impractical in countries the size of the UK or US, but it's perfectly doable here, they already do it for medicine. Or at the very least, the non-binding entrance tests that have been suggested this year, to at least give students a good indication of whether they're likely to be successful in university. But no, our idiot of a minister has to oppose that. Bah.
Do universities not get to set their own standards, and make entry conditional on getting certain grades? Damn bleeding-heart liberal Europeans :P. (New Zealand is like that too)

Nope. You have to realize there are all of, er, five universities in Flanders if I'm not mistaken, of which only two large ones that offer pretty much everything, the other three are smaller and have a more limited range of subjects. It would be ridiculous to try and get a hierarchy between those universities in terms of quality, the way you have in the UK and USA. And see above for entry conditional on getting certain grades. My sister has a few people in her year who are going to British universities next year - one might go to Edinburgh, I understand - and so they do have those conditional offers, but while those might make sense in the UK, I find them ridiculous here. How is Edinburgh or Oxford or any British university ever going to evaluate whether the grades attained by those students here are at all comparable to what they'd be in Britain?
I'm in a mood for discussing politics at the moment. You can probably guess why. Also, in addition to the obvious reason, I have a Public Law exam coming up.

I'm not sure Belgian universities have much to do with your Public Law exam. ;) But it's always fun to rant about my country, even if Ghavrel claims I do that all the time.
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So the list of countries using the euro will grow longer, not shorter... Estonia to join in 2011 - 12/05/2010 10:51:37 PM 1013 Views
Sounds like a winner - 12/05/2010 11:07:38 PM 634 Views
You Americans should like Estonia - they're rather neoliberal that way. - 12/05/2010 11:18:30 PM 831 Views
Apparently we do - 13/05/2010 05:34:41 PM 679 Views
I liked the remark one Estonian bankofficial made - 12/05/2010 11:38:26 PM 590 Views
Re: I liked the remark one Estonian bankofficial made - 12/05/2010 11:42:37 PM 661 Views
I stand corrected than - 12/05/2010 11:45:33 PM 546 Views
I do sometimes wish more Belgians would understand that. - 12/05/2010 11:52:41 PM 529 Views
Re: I do sometimes wish more Belgians would understand that. - 13/05/2010 12:05:03 AM 537 Views
That would be more convincing if universities promoted more social mobility. - 13/05/2010 12:11:37 AM 659 Views
Social attitudes take a very long time to change. - 13/05/2010 12:28:09 AM 682 Views
We have need-based scholarships. We could extend them. - 13/05/2010 12:38:31 AM 565 Views
I guess it depends on exactly what the fees are. - 13/05/2010 11:06:37 AM 652 Views
They're low. Too low. - 13/05/2010 12:12:29 PM 676 Views
American universities do have entrance exams. Sort of. - 13/05/2010 02:17:13 PM 698 Views
Those are really too lame to count. - 13/05/2010 02:21:23 PM 713 Views
Re: Those are really too lame to count. - 13/05/2010 05:04:25 PM 724 Views
typically the more specialized programs require that - 13/05/2010 05:53:20 PM 630 Views
Re: Those are really too lame to count. - 13/05/2010 07:32:19 PM 720 Views
Like I indicated, I'm not suggesting it in the American system. - 13/05/2010 07:53:15 PM 714 Views
meh. Most degrees are useless anyway. - 13/05/2010 01:14:54 AM 555 Views
Come on. - 13/05/2010 10:13:29 AM 708 Views
You ever been to Estonia? If not, stop speaking. *NM* - 13/05/2010 10:29:17 AM 371 Views
your funny *NM* - 13/05/2010 02:01:06 PM 236 Views
Surely Sweden can say, or could have said, that they wouldn't join till they damn well felt like it? - 12/05/2010 11:39:57 PM 590 Views
Apparently Denmark only got the opt-out after rejecting the Maastricht treaty. - 12/05/2010 11:47:00 PM 623 Views
Good point: it seems to me no-one cares about being Belgian, only Flemish or Walloon . - 12/05/2010 11:51:27 PM 498 Views
It's slightly more subtle than that. - 13/05/2010 12:00:29 AM 656 Views
What do you think about this suggestion? - 13/05/2010 12:09:02 AM 644 Views
That has been suggested by many, yeah. - 13/05/2010 12:28:24 AM 653 Views
But before you make a decision like that... - 13/05/2010 08:36:07 AM 654 Views
We have a Flemish government, though. - 13/05/2010 12:22:57 PM 679 Views
There is one answer to most of those questions - 12/05/2010 11:49:46 PM 525 Views
I love that the rest of you have the euro. - 12/05/2010 11:53:10 PM 507 Views
*waits for the Pound to drop and the UK begging for the euro* *NM* - 12/05/2010 11:56:25 PM 309 Views
That would be the worst time to do it. - 13/05/2010 12:05:32 AM 617 Views
Well... that is true. But your exports would be really high. - 13/05/2010 12:11:50 AM 562 Views
Also the best time. - 13/05/2010 12:11:53 AM 608 Views
I WIN *NM* - 13/05/2010 12:12:51 AM 243 Views
Bah *NM* - 13/05/2010 12:18:48 AM 208 Views
It was the best of times, it was the worst of times... *NM* - 13/05/2010 12:19:32 AM 201 Views
There is a small problem with that... - 13/05/2010 10:21:44 AM 521 Views
I found the wikipedia article. - 13/05/2010 10:53:00 AM 707 Views
WOW WHEN DID THE UK CHANGE THEIR COINS - 13/05/2010 12:10:41 AM 611 Views
2008, apparently. Though I don't think we actually saw them until 2009. - 13/05/2010 12:17:46 AM 632 Views
I used to use a ten-pound note to inhale...things. - 13/05/2010 05:54:09 AM 568 Views
You have a thing for Charles Darwin? - 13/05/2010 10:45:14 AM 518 Views
From "Mean Mr. Mustard" - "keeps a ten-bob note up his nose...such a mean old man..." - 13/05/2010 02:36:34 PM 544 Views
In that case I'm going to have to disappoint you. - 13/05/2010 02:54:04 PM 686 Views
I knew that, but I had limited options. - 13/05/2010 03:15:07 PM 658 Views
You could try a €500 note. - 13/05/2010 03:18:11 PM 553 Views
In other news, the sky is blue. - 13/05/2010 03:33:25 PM 585 Views
I seem to remember reading something in 2002 about Germans paying their monthly rent in cash. - 13/05/2010 03:43:35 PM 651 Views
Hm. Possible. - 13/05/2010 03:50:31 PM 533 Views
Re: In other news, the sky is blue. - 13/05/2010 07:45:06 PM 662 Views
Sheesh...I was just using, not dealing. - 13/05/2010 03:47:05 PM 546 Views
The thrill of decadence? *NM* - 13/05/2010 03:51:21 PM 240 Views
Ooh...I'm sure THAT will shore up the eurozone... *laughs* - 13/05/2010 05:51:12 AM 604 Views
Agreed - 13/05/2010 12:20:12 PM 581 Views
Nobody said it would. - 13/05/2010 12:34:27 PM 581 Views
You know what will save the eurozone ? - 13/05/2010 04:55:06 PM 570 Views
You're a little ray of sunshine, aren't you? *NM* - 13/05/2010 05:10:48 PM 225 Views
Hey man, I don't want Europe to be the next Japan - 13/05/2010 05:42:26 PM 576 Views

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