If you go the American way and charge €20,000, but then offer €20,000 scholarships to the poor, you'll still get mostly rich people because the poor will see the price tag and get scared. And they'll be less likely to apply because they know they can't be assured of getting a scholarship, even if they are clever.
Off the top of my head, something in the vicinity of 600 euros a year. For students with limited financial means, it's reduced to something like 80 euros, though obviously the other costs of studying (transport, room & board, textbooks) are much more significant anyway, so they can get financial support for those things too.
So I was entirely serious when I said double or triple the tuition fees and it'll still be on the cheap side - but perhaps people will take their studies a bit more seriously.
And no, they *are* assured of getting a scholarship, though perhaps scholarship is the wrong word under those circumstances. When I say need-based, what I mean is that everyone who can prove their financial situation is not very good gets the financial support, it's not like there's a limited amount of scholarships or whatever. Cleverness has absolutely nothing to do with it.
I think guaranteed entry to anyone who finishes school, rather than free tuition, is the source of your problem . That way people drift into university, rather than setting their heart on getting there and working for it. Then they suddenly discover they don't have to be there as they did with school, and they go nuts.
Pretty much. I'm not a fan of American or British systems that look at secondary school grades, though. First and foremost, it's impossible to compare grades between schools (or hell, in many cases even between teachers within the same school), and it would discourage students from going into the hardest tracks (at my secondary school, grades for mathematics in the most maths-heavy track tended to be little above 60% even for the best students; it makes no sense to compare that to the 90%+ scores easily attained by those in less demanding tracks in terms of mathematics). And besides that, what with puberty and all, there's bound to be loads of students whose grades in secondary school have some irregularities or periods that they're awful, which says little about their ability to do well in university.
No, if I had to choose, I'd go with entrance exams - might be impractical in countries the size of the UK or US, but it's perfectly doable here, they already do it for medicine. Or at the very least, the non-binding entrance tests that have been suggested this year, to at least give students a good indication of whether they're likely to be successful in university. But no, our idiot of a minister has to oppose that. Bah.
Do universities not get to set their own standards, and make entry conditional on getting certain grades? Damn bleeding-heart liberal Europeans . (New Zealand is like that too)
Nope. You have to realize there are all of, er, five universities in Flanders if I'm not mistaken, of which only two large ones that offer pretty much everything, the other three are smaller and have a more limited range of subjects. It would be ridiculous to try and get a hierarchy between those universities in terms of quality, the way you have in the UK and USA. And see above for entry conditional on getting certain grades. My sister has a few people in her year who are going to British universities next year - one might go to Edinburgh, I understand - and so they do have those conditional offers, but while those might make sense in the UK, I find them ridiculous here. How is Edinburgh or Oxford or any British university ever going to evaluate whether the grades attained by those students here are at all comparable to what they'd be in Britain?
I'm in a mood for discussing politics at the moment. You can probably guess why. Also, in addition to the obvious reason, I have a Public Law exam coming up.
I'm not sure Belgian universities have much to do with your Public Law exam. But it's always fun to rant about my country, even if Ghavrel claims I do that all the time.
So the list of countries using the euro will grow longer, not shorter... Estonia to join in 2011
12/05/2010 10:51:37 PM
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Sounds like a winner
12/05/2010 11:07:38 PM
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You Americans should like Estonia - they're rather neoliberal that way.
12/05/2010 11:18:30 PM
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I liked the remark one Estonian bankofficial made
12/05/2010 11:38:26 PM
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I do sometimes wish more Belgians would understand that.
12/05/2010 11:52:41 PM
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Re: I do sometimes wish more Belgians would understand that.
13/05/2010 12:05:03 AM
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That would be more convincing if universities promoted more social mobility.
13/05/2010 12:11:37 AM
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Social attitudes take a very long time to change.
13/05/2010 12:28:09 AM
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We have need-based scholarships. We could extend them.
13/05/2010 12:38:31 AM
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I guess it depends on exactly what the fees are.
13/05/2010 11:06:37 AM
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They're low. Too low.
13/05/2010 12:12:29 PM
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American universities do have entrance exams. Sort of.
13/05/2010 02:17:13 PM
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Those are really too lame to count.
13/05/2010 02:21:23 PM
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meh. Most degrees are useless anyway.
13/05/2010 01:14:54 AM
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That could be fixed if there weren't such stigma attached to vocational schools.
13/05/2010 02:18:40 AM
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Re: That would be more convincing if universities promoted more social mobility.
13/05/2010 08:08:16 PM
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Re: That would be more convincing if universities promoted more social mobility.
14/05/2010 11:48:22 AM
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Is it as late as university? Or is it a good bit earlier? EDIT: Nevermind. Answered elsewhere.
14/05/2010 05:36:50 PM
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Re: Is it as late as university? Or is it a good bit earlier? EDIT: Nevermind. Answered elsewhere.
14/05/2010 07:57:32 PM
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Re: That would be more convincing if universities promoted more social mobility.
14/05/2010 08:02:58 PM
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naw most of them are getting degrees in liberal arts because they like to read book more then work *NM*
13/05/2010 02:01:59 PM
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Surely Sweden can say, or could have said, that they wouldn't join till they damn well felt like it?
12/05/2010 11:39:57 PM
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Apparently Denmark only got the opt-out after rejecting the Maastricht treaty.
12/05/2010 11:47:00 PM
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Good point: it seems to me no-one cares about being Belgian, only Flemish or Walloon .
12/05/2010 11:51:27 PM
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It's slightly more subtle than that.
13/05/2010 12:00:29 AM
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What do you think about this suggestion?
13/05/2010 12:09:02 AM
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That has been suggested by many, yeah.
13/05/2010 12:28:24 AM
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But before you make a decision like that...
13/05/2010 08:36:07 AM
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They can export him to another country which needs a king. Wouldn't be the first time.
13/05/2010 10:57:59 AM
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Hmm, a pan-European entity getting too big and splitting into Eastern and Western administrations...
13/05/2010 11:09:51 AM
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There is one answer to most of those questions
12/05/2010 11:49:46 PM
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I love that the rest of you have the euro.
12/05/2010 11:53:10 PM
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*waits for the Pound to drop and the UK begging for the euro* *NM*
12/05/2010 11:56:25 PM
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That would be the worst time to do it.
13/05/2010 12:05:32 AM
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I think on the balance, that's probably better than the opposite, but yeah, neither is ideal. *NM*
13/05/2010 12:14:23 AM
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WOW WHEN DID THE UK CHANGE THEIR COINS
13/05/2010 12:10:41 AM
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2008, apparently. Though I don't think we actually saw them until 2009.
13/05/2010 12:17:46 AM
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Oh. Okay. I guess the black is just a reflective thing they're doing for the photo.
13/05/2010 12:37:24 AM
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I used to use a ten-pound note to inhale...things.
13/05/2010 05:54:09 AM
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You have a thing for Charles Darwin?
13/05/2010 10:45:14 AM
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From "Mean Mr. Mustard" - "keeps a ten-bob note up his nose...such a mean old man..."
13/05/2010 02:36:34 PM
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In that case I'm going to have to disappoint you.
13/05/2010 02:54:04 PM
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I knew that, but I had limited options.
13/05/2010 03:15:07 PM
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You could try a €500 note.
13/05/2010 03:18:11 PM
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In other news, the sky is blue.
13/05/2010 03:33:25 PM
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I seem to remember reading something in 2002 about Germans paying their monthly rent in cash.
13/05/2010 03:43:35 PM
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Ooh...I'm sure THAT will shore up the eurozone... *laughs*
13/05/2010 05:51:12 AM
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Nobody said it would.
13/05/2010 12:34:27 PM
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You know what will save the eurozone ?
13/05/2010 04:55:06 PM
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