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I guess it depends on exactly what the fees are. Tim Send a noteboard - 13/05/2010 11:06:37 AM
But if the comparatively few people from working-class backgrounds who want to go to university can't afford do so, things will never get any better.

Double or triple tuition fees, and they'd still be on a level with the Dutch ones, less than half of the British ones and nothing compared to American ones. Extend the scholarships to keep the price the same for those who need it, if need be. But really, this "higher education needs to be free" thing is nonsense. If the working class people don't get to university, it really isn't because of the money, it's because our secondary education system evidently isn't good enough at getting the deserving among those people in the university-aimed tracks, because somehow they are discouraged from university studies. When I'm discussing topics like this, I suddenly find myself longing for that American dream concept that I otherwise tend to be rather sceptical about.


If you go the American way and charge €20,000, but then offer €20,000 scholarships to the poor, you'll still get mostly rich people because the poor will see the price tag and get scared. And they'll be less likely to apply because they know they can't be assured of getting a scholarship, even if they are clever.

On the other hand, if you charge €750 and offer €750 scholarships to the poor, it might work a bit better.

That said, I do sometimes resent some of the 18-year-olds on my course who are getting their degree for free while I pay through the nose. Not because I don't think tuition should be free, nor because I don't think it's fair enough to charge people for a second degree, but because a lot of them take it for granted and piss around instead of doing work. We accelerated students often say to each other "Pah, you can tell who's getting their degree for free..." Using taxpayers' money to skip lectures and sit mute and unprepated in tutorials is not OK in my book.

Some figures for you to explain the problem: most university studies in Flanders (not sure about Walloon data) have pass rates of about 50% in the first year; most of the 50% who fail will eventually get their degree with one or more years delay, but a significant amount doesn't. Of course, high failure rates in the first year is, one might argue, a necessity in a country where universities accept every student who wishes to enroll provided he has a secondary school certificate (which is one reason why I advocate entrance exams like our medicine schools have, the main reason why the pass rate is so much higher there), but it's still an enormous waste of taxpayer money.


I think guaranteed entry to anyone who finishes school, rather than free tuition, is the source of your problem :P. That way people drift into university, rather than setting their heart on getting there and working for it. Then they suddenly discover they don't have to be there as they did with school, and they go nuts.

Do universities not get to set their own standards, and make entry conditional on getting certain grades? Damn bleeding-heart liberal Europeans :P. (New Zealand is like that too)

How did this go from a post about Estonia to a post about me giving my opinion on a myriad of Belgian issues? :P


I'm in a mood for discussing politics at the moment. You can probably guess why. Also, in addition to the obvious reason, I have a Public Law exam coming up.
Vigilantibus non dormientibus jura subveniunt.

—Nous disons en allemand : le guerre, le mort, le lune, alors que 'soleil' et 'amour' sont du sexe féminin : la soleil, la amour. La vie est neutre.

—La vie ? Neutre ? C'est très joli, et surtout très logique.
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So the list of countries using the euro will grow longer, not shorter... Estonia to join in 2011 Legolas - 12/05/2010 10:51:37 PM 1084 Views
Sounds like a winner Isaac - 12/05/2010 11:07:38 PM 703 Views
You Americans should like Estonia - they're rather neoliberal that way. Legolas - 12/05/2010 11:18:30 PM 898 Views
Apparently we do Isaac - 13/05/2010 05:34:41 PM 747 Views
I liked the remark one Estonian bankofficial made Bramhodoulos - 12/05/2010 11:38:26 PM 663 Views
Re: I liked the remark one Estonian bankofficial made BlackAdder - 12/05/2010 11:42:37 PM 730 Views
I stand corrected than Bramhodoulos - 12/05/2010 11:45:33 PM 617 Views
I do sometimes wish more Belgians would understand that. Legolas - 12/05/2010 11:52:41 PM 598 Views
Re: I do sometimes wish more Belgians would understand that. BlackAdder - 13/05/2010 12:05:03 AM 604 Views
That would be more convincing if universities promoted more social mobility. Legolas - 13/05/2010 12:11:37 AM 734 Views
Social attitudes take a very long time to change. Tim - 13/05/2010 12:28:09 AM 750 Views
We have need-based scholarships. We could extend them. Legolas - 13/05/2010 12:38:31 AM 628 Views
I guess it depends on exactly what the fees are. Tim - 13/05/2010 11:06:37 AM 718 Views
They're low. Too low. Legolas - 13/05/2010 12:12:29 PM 744 Views
American universities do have entrance exams. Sort of. Macharius - 13/05/2010 02:17:13 PM 738 Views
Those are really too lame to count. Legolas - 13/05/2010 02:21:23 PM 788 Views
Re: Those are really too lame to count. Macharius - 13/05/2010 05:04:25 PM 790 Views
typically the more specialized programs require that LadyLorraine - 13/05/2010 05:53:20 PM 700 Views
Re: Those are really too lame to count. BlackAdder - 13/05/2010 07:32:19 PM 799 Views
Like I indicated, I'm not suggesting it in the American system. Legolas - 13/05/2010 07:53:15 PM 795 Views
meh. Most degrees are useless anyway. AgentOrange - 13/05/2010 01:14:54 AM 626 Views
That could be fixed if there weren't such stigma attached to vocational schools. Ghavrel - 13/05/2010 02:18:40 AM 648 Views
Re: That would be more convincing if universities promoted more social mobility. BlackAdder - 13/05/2010 08:08:16 PM 709 Views
Buying a senator helps. Vodalus - 14/05/2010 02:33:44 AM 664 Views
Re: That would be more convincing if universities promoted more social mobility. Legolas - 14/05/2010 11:48:22 AM 713 Views
Is it as late as university? Or is it a good bit earlier? EDIT: Nevermind. Answered elsewhere. Vodalus - 14/05/2010 05:36:50 PM 813 Views
Oh, it's a lot earlier. Legolas - 14/05/2010 06:03:51 PM 767 Views
Re: Is it as late as university? Or is it a good bit earlier? EDIT: Nevermind. Answered elsewhere. BlackAdder - 14/05/2010 07:57:32 PM 645 Views
Re: That would be more convincing if universities promoted more social mobility. BlackAdder - 14/05/2010 08:02:58 PM 766 Views
Come on. jh - 13/05/2010 10:13:29 AM 779 Views
naw most of them are getting degrees in liberal arts because they like to read book more then work *NM* random thoughts - 13/05/2010 02:01:59 PM 261 Views
You ever been to Estonia? If not, stop speaking. *NM* Lordling - 13/05/2010 10:29:17 AM 396 Views
your funny *NM* random thoughts - 13/05/2010 02:01:06 PM 261 Views
Surely Sweden can say, or could have said, that they wouldn't join till they damn well felt like it? Tim - 12/05/2010 11:39:57 PM 656 Views
Apparently Denmark only got the opt-out after rejecting the Maastricht treaty. Legolas - 12/05/2010 11:47:00 PM 696 Views
Good point: it seems to me no-one cares about being Belgian, only Flemish or Walloon . Tim - 12/05/2010 11:51:27 PM 567 Views
It's slightly more subtle than that. Legolas - 13/05/2010 12:00:29 AM 733 Views
What do you think about this suggestion? Tim - 13/05/2010 12:09:02 AM 717 Views
That has been suggested by many, yeah. Legolas - 13/05/2010 12:28:24 AM 732 Views
But before you make a decision like that... Bramhodoulos - 13/05/2010 08:36:07 AM 718 Views
They can export him to another country which needs a king. Wouldn't be the first time. Tim - 13/05/2010 10:57:59 AM 651 Views
We have a Flemish government, though. Legolas - 13/05/2010 12:22:57 PM 752 Views
Hmm, a pan-European entity getting too big and splitting into Eastern and Western administrations... Tim - 13/05/2010 11:09:51 AM 629 Views
That wasn't entirely what I meant. Legolas - 13/05/2010 12:15:14 PM 668 Views
There is one answer to most of those questions Bramhodoulos - 12/05/2010 11:49:46 PM 595 Views
I love that the rest of you have the euro. Tim - 12/05/2010 11:53:10 PM 585 Views
*waits for the Pound to drop and the UK begging for the euro* *NM* Bramhodoulos - 12/05/2010 11:56:25 PM 339 Views
That would be the worst time to do it. Tim - 13/05/2010 12:05:32 AM 686 Views
Well... that is true. But your exports would be really high. Ghavrel - 13/05/2010 12:11:50 AM 630 Views
Also the best time. snoopcester - 13/05/2010 12:11:53 AM 683 Views
I WIN *NM* Ghavrel - 13/05/2010 12:12:51 AM 271 Views
Bah *NM* snoopcester - 13/05/2010 12:18:48 AM 238 Views
It was the best of times, it was the worst of times... *NM* Tim - 13/05/2010 12:19:32 AM 228 Views
I think on the balance, that's probably better than the opposite, but yeah, neither is ideal. *NM* Legolas - 13/05/2010 12:14:23 AM 309 Views
There is a small problem with that... jh - 13/05/2010 10:21:44 AM 582 Views
I found the wikipedia article. Tim - 13/05/2010 10:53:00 AM 776 Views
WOW WHEN DID THE UK CHANGE THEIR COINS Ghavrel - 13/05/2010 12:10:41 AM 683 Views
2008, apparently. Though I don't think we actually saw them until 2009. Tim - 13/05/2010 12:17:46 AM 697 Views
Oh. Okay. I guess the black is just a reflective thing they're doing for the photo. Ghavrel - 13/05/2010 12:37:24 AM 631 Views
I used to use a ten-pound note to inhale...things. Tom - 13/05/2010 05:54:09 AM 643 Views
You have a thing for Charles Darwin? Tim - 13/05/2010 10:45:14 AM 591 Views
From "Mean Mr. Mustard" - "keeps a ten-bob note up his nose...such a mean old man..." Tom - 13/05/2010 02:36:34 PM 625 Views
In that case I'm going to have to disappoint you. Tim - 13/05/2010 02:54:04 PM 751 Views
I knew that, but I had limited options. Tom - 13/05/2010 03:15:07 PM 732 Views
You could try a €500 note. Tim - 13/05/2010 03:18:11 PM 627 Views
In other news, the sky is blue. Legolas - 13/05/2010 03:33:25 PM 651 Views
I seem to remember reading something in 2002 about Germans paying their monthly rent in cash. Tim - 13/05/2010 03:43:35 PM 728 Views
Hm. Possible. Legolas - 13/05/2010 03:50:31 PM 605 Views
Re: In other news, the sky is blue. BlackAdder - 13/05/2010 07:45:06 PM 728 Views
Sheesh...I was just using, not dealing. Tom - 13/05/2010 03:47:05 PM 623 Views
The thrill of decadence? *NM* Tim - 13/05/2010 03:51:21 PM 263 Views
Ooh...I'm sure THAT will shore up the eurozone... *laughs* Tom - 13/05/2010 05:51:12 AM 678 Views
Agreed Balwer - 13/05/2010 12:20:12 PM 648 Views
Nobody said it would. Legolas - 13/05/2010 12:34:27 PM 654 Views
You know what will save the eurozone ? AgentOrange - 13/05/2010 04:55:06 PM 641 Views
You're a little ray of sunshine, aren't you? *NM* Legolas - 13/05/2010 05:10:48 PM 253 Views
Hey man, I don't want Europe to be the next Japan AgentOrange - 13/05/2010 05:42:26 PM 645 Views
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