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Re: I'm going to take a common sense approach on this for a minute BlackAdder Send a noteboard - 26/04/2010 11:48:14 PM
Below I actually have big chunks of the bill listed... some of you may want to consider reading it before declaring why you love or hate it so much. My first take is basically that this allows them to follow through on citizen status of people they have otherwise detained for other reasons, but their is a panel being appointed to review 'reasonable suspicion' anyway, and generate guidelines for the express purpose of avoiding racial profiling so on the libertarian aspect I'd say 'wait and see' what those guidelines are before going nuts, if they're crappy I'll probably be among you.

Well, that would make sense, but it's open to interpretation. I (personally) think it's fine for cops to do a background check if you're arrested (including immigration status), but not if they just detain you (as there is no 'probable cause' ).

The key phrase from below is "lawful contact" - as I understand it, that can be for any reason; it is up to the judgement of the LEO to say why they found your behavior/activity suspicious. Technically, lawful contact can be made if, e.g., the LEO is just curious why are you in that part of the neighborhood and starts talking to you.

But first, let's take the worst scenario, a cop with a chip on their shoulder comes up to someone with a mexican accent and appearance who is a citizen, and asks for ID. They produce it, the cop leaves, that person feels a bit offended and makes a stink, locally police get a bit leery of doing it without good cause. Alternate, they approach someone same but not a citizen or a legal visitor, they don't produce ID... a criminal has been arrested. Umm, this is a good thing, isn't it?

That's like the best case scenario, not the worst.

Although now that I’ve skimmed the enacted version, I’m not sure it requires citizens to carry papers either.

B. FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR A LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR A LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY OF A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE, WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON, EXCEPT IF THE DETERMINATION MAY HINDER OR OBSTRUCT AN INVESTIGATION. ANY PERSON WHO IS ARRESTED SHALL HAVE THE PERSON’S IMMIGRATION STATUS DETERMINED BEFORE THE PERSON IS RELEASED. THE PERSON’S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c). A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE MAY NOT SOLELY CONSIDER RACE, COLOR OR NATIONAL ORIGIN IN IMPLEMENTING THE REQUIREMENTS OF THIS SUBSECTION EXCEPT TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY THE UNITED STATES OR ARIZONA CONSTITUTION. A PERSON IS PRESUMED TO NOT BE AN ALIEN WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES IF THE PERSON PROVIDES TO THE LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER OR AGENCY ANY OF THE FOLLOWING:
1. A VALID ARIZONA DRIVER LICENSE.
2. A VALID ARIZONA NONOPERATING IDENTIFICATION LICENSE.
3. A VALID TRIBAL ENROLLMENT CARD OR OTHER FORM OF TRIBAL IDENTIFICATION.
4. IF THE ENTITY REQUIRES PROOF OF LEGAL PRESENCE IN THE UNITED STATES BEFORE ISSUANCE, ANY VALID UNITED STATES FEDERAL, STATE OR LOCAL GOVERNMENT ISSUED IDENTIFICATION.

I've bolded the two important phrases: "lawful contact" and "reasonable suspicion"; these are pretty subjective phrases and the debate essentially revolves around them.

The “reasonable suspicion” requirement is still there (see yesterday’s post for more on that) but this version specifies that there have to be independent grounds for suspicion beyond race. Also new is the list of documents that someone can present to create a presumption that they’re here legally, although it’s unclear to me how that’ll work in practice. If you’re pulled over on suspicion of being illegal for whatever reason and you produce an Arizona driver’s license, does the cop then let you go (probably, in most cases) or does he get to hold you while he tries to come up with further evidence to overcome the presumption? Another open question — and this is the key for civil libertarians — is whether “reasonable suspicion” can be formed simply by virtue of the fact that the suspect isn’t carrying one of the ID types listed. If so, then cops could theoretically start pulling people aside on the sidewalk and hauling them in if they don’t produce their “papers.” I don’t read this section that way; it sounds like “reasonable suspicion” must exist before any “reasonable attempt” to verify the suspect’s immigration status is made. But if I’m misreading it and “reasonable suspicion” is satisfied if the suspect is guilty of nothing more than being Latino and forgetting his driver’s license at home, then they’re going to have a Category Five legal and political clusterfark on their hands when the first American citizens of Hispanic descent are mistakenly arrested.

I'm glad that local driver licenses are at least accepted. But aren't there some states that will issue DL's to illegal aliens? I wonder if they will keep a list of which state DL's are OK and which are not.

There’s another section about ID later on:

A. IN ADDITION TO ANY VIOLATION OF FEDERAL LAW, A PERSON IS GUILTY OF WILLFUL FAILURE TO COMPLETE OR CARRY AN ALIEN REGISTRATION DOCUMENT IF THE PERSON IS IN VIOLATION OF 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1304(e) OR 1306(a).

Translation: If you’re here legally and you’re caught without your “papers,” i.e. your green card, you’re going to be fined. Obviously, though, this section doesn’t apply to citizens, and the carry requirement is already part of federal law. All this does is make it a crime under Arizona law too.

Yes, well, it is now an enforced law (or soon-to-be enforced) instead of one of many unenforced laws.

The more I think about it, the more I think this law is little more than a bargaining chip Arizona’s using to make the feds get serious about enforcement. They surely realize they’ll have no end of headaches from passing this thing, but no matter how much it backfires, they’ll still get to point at Washington and say, “You drove us to these desperate measures!” — which will put that much more pressure on Congress to seal the border when it finally takes up a new amnesty bill. Newly minted immigration hardliner John McCain is already playing that angle to the hilt, which means it’s open season for the rest of the Republican caucus to follow suit. I just hope The Artist Formerly Known as Maverick is prepared for damage control if/when Arizona cops start arresting American citizens. Won’t be pretty.

That could make sense, although personally I don't give the politicians credit for that much foresight.
This message last edited by BlackAdder on 26/04/2010 at 11:48:39 PM
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The Arizona immigration bill thingy - 26/04/2010 12:57:20 AM 2033 Views
Such a wrongheaded law. - 26/04/2010 02:25:10 AM 860 Views
A lot of stuff makes me go "whuh?" legally. - 26/04/2010 03:38:12 AM 748 Views
Sounds like apartheid in SA... - 26/04/2010 02:36:52 AM 906 Views
As bad as the law is, that's an ignorant statement. *NM* - 26/04/2010 02:38:16 AM 431 Views
Re: Sounds like apartheid in SA... - 26/04/2010 05:13:17 AM 1011 Views
It shows that Arizona is already lost - 26/04/2010 03:09:24 AM 900 Views
Looks like no one knows how bad it is along the border - 26/04/2010 06:19:24 AM 867 Views
Oh please! The immigration and drug problems don't justify bad legislation. - 26/04/2010 07:02:54 AM 878 Views
I do. - 26/04/2010 07:11:10 AM 1036 Views
Re: I do. - 26/04/2010 07:45:21 AM 859 Views
Yeah, I saw an interview with a former U.S. Drug Czar - 26/04/2010 06:35:10 PM 829 Views
Okay, I grew up in Arizona. - 26/04/2010 12:41:21 PM 1053 Views
Re: Looks like no one knows how bad it is along the border - 26/04/2010 03:58:37 PM 928 Views
looks like somebody doesn't quite get the point - 29/04/2010 06:18:58 AM 1511 Views
Some thoughts - 26/04/2010 06:42:02 AM 962 Views
I wouldn't worry to much laws like that - 26/04/2010 03:03:16 PM 844 Views
patriot act gives that to any federal law enforcement officer - 29/04/2010 06:13:38 AM 942 Views
Re: Some thoughts - 26/04/2010 04:04:55 PM 839 Views
Sounds more like a bill to convince people they are doing something than to do something - 26/04/2010 12:43:19 PM 840 Views
What I find interesting about all this... - 26/04/2010 01:06:08 PM 936 Views
well you see, that IS part of the problem - 26/04/2010 01:13:19 PM 934 Views
Re: What I find interesting about all this... - 26/04/2010 03:52:09 PM 874 Views
Perhaps I'm wrong, but... - 26/04/2010 01:49:13 PM 831 Views
I don't know about the green cards - 26/04/2010 03:05:49 PM 871 Views
That last point doesn't really make any sense. - 26/04/2010 03:20:19 PM 858 Views
my point was that the punishments for the similar crimes are so different. - 26/04/2010 04:23:08 PM 807 Views
Hey, I think it's an appalling law. - 27/04/2010 02:24:30 PM 937 Views
Re: Perhaps I'm wrong, but... - 26/04/2010 03:41:47 PM 782 Views
The law will be overturned but it may help to get the federal government off their collective ass - 26/04/2010 02:59:11 PM 904 Views
The law will most likely not be overturned. - 26/04/2010 03:13:24 PM 842 Views
I meant by the courts - 27/04/2010 03:49:11 PM 737 Views
ah well. that'd be nice, then. *NM* - 27/04/2010 05:14:31 PM 405 Views
It's interesting how this sort of mirrors the Belgian issues. - 26/04/2010 03:34:59 PM 849 Views
the "overrunning" of culture and language is exaggerated, imo - 26/04/2010 04:34:56 PM 865 Views
I think the primary problem - in both cases - is language, yes. - 26/04/2010 04:54:55 PM 885 Views
*shrug* I don't know. I just think that people are way too uptight about the issue - 26/04/2010 05:02:30 PM 818 Views
I agree with you - 26/04/2010 05:26:47 PM 833 Views
that is also true - 26/04/2010 05:44:40 PM 782 Views
There is a difference between assimilating and being assimilated - 27/04/2010 04:09:19 PM 854 Views
the differences really are not that minor - 28/04/2010 06:49:33 PM 867 Views
hmm, see - 28/04/2010 07:10:42 PM 763 Views
I am from San Antonio I have always been able to buy burritos from my neighbors - 28/04/2010 08:28:45 PM 787 Views
mmmm Tamale. - 28/04/2010 08:53:13 PM 797 Views
a minor point.... - 29/04/2010 06:30:22 AM 884 Views
I'm going to take a common sense approach on this for a minute - 26/04/2010 09:05:21 PM 1076 Views
Re: I'm going to take a common sense approach on this for a minute - 26/04/2010 11:48:14 PM 1173 Views
you are correct - 29/04/2010 06:39:29 AM 1213 Views
Uhm, how is that "worst" case scenario? - 27/04/2010 01:28:28 PM 827 Views
Worst reasonable case scenario - 28/04/2010 06:48:29 PM 763 Views
Will the will of the people of Arizona be respected? - 27/04/2010 12:12:46 AM 931 Views
That's funny... - 27/04/2010 01:57:14 AM 1140 Views
echo chamber much? - 27/04/2010 04:14:53 PM 893 Views
there's also 53% of us who think this will lead to violating civil rights. - 27/04/2010 05:19:29 PM 776 Views
Re: there's also 53% of us who think this will lead to violating civil rights. - 28/04/2010 12:40:42 PM 835 Views
Those incidents are horrible - 28/04/2010 01:07:39 PM 807 Views
Re: That's funny... - 28/04/2010 12:30:41 PM 845 Views
And this law will not give them what they want - 28/04/2010 01:12:50 PM 854 Views
Also, the potential economic consequences of the law could be severe for Arizona. - 27/04/2010 01:03:54 AM 868 Views
now that's just crazy talk. - 27/04/2010 01:58:42 AM 797 Views
activist group liberal group claims it will cost money, what a shocker *NM* - 27/04/2010 04:23:11 PM 374 Views
It will cost money - 27/04/2010 09:16:31 PM 846 Views
but all of that ignores the long term savings - 28/04/2010 03:24:50 PM 778 Views
it's less a matter of american tourism - 28/04/2010 04:06:50 PM 827 Views
if they law is enforced it will decrease the number of illegals who go to Arizona - 28/04/2010 06:35:26 PM 894 Views
I will admit - 28/04/2010 07:01:55 PM 802 Views
there have always been bad cops and there always will be - 28/04/2010 08:53:50 PM 771 Views
I don't see any real long term savings coming from this. - 28/04/2010 10:17:26 PM 885 Views
70% of the people in Arizona support the new law and 30% of the state is Hispanic - 28/04/2010 10:51:08 PM 1043 Views
real science? - 28/04/2010 11:06:13 PM 820 Views
I linked to it further up the thread and you responded - 28/04/2010 11:19:51 PM 801 Views
ah, I think I missed it for some reason - 29/04/2010 12:18:13 AM 878 Views
who has time to read all of this crap *NM* - 29/04/2010 04:26:11 AM 353 Views
I'm familiar with the Rasmussen poll - 28/04/2010 11:31:30 PM 1123 Views
Here's Judge Napolitano's response to this - 27/04/2010 02:19:49 PM 816 Views

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