Re: I'm going to take a common sense approach on this for a minute
BlackAdder Send a noteboard - 26/04/2010 11:48:14 PM
Below I actually have big chunks of the bill listed... some of you may want to consider reading it before declaring why you love or hate it so much. My first take is basically that this allows them to follow through on citizen status of people they have otherwise detained for other reasons, but their is a panel being appointed to review 'reasonable suspicion' anyway, and generate guidelines for the express purpose of avoiding racial profiling so on the libertarian aspect I'd say 'wait and see' what those guidelines are before going nuts, if they're crappy I'll probably be among you.
Well, that would make sense, but it's open to interpretation. I (personally) think it's fine for cops to do a background check if you're arrested (including immigration status), but not if they just detain you (as there is no 'probable cause' ).
The key phrase from below is "lawful contact" - as I understand it, that can be for any reason; it is up to the judgement of the LEO to say why they found your behavior/activity suspicious. Technically, lawful contact can be made if, e.g., the LEO is just curious why are you in that part of the neighborhood and starts talking to you.
But first, let's take the worst scenario, a cop with a chip on their shoulder comes up to someone with a mexican accent and appearance who is a citizen, and asks for ID. They produce it, the cop leaves, that person feels a bit offended and makes a stink, locally police get a bit leery of doing it without good cause. Alternate, they approach someone same but not a citizen or a legal visitor, they don't produce ID... a criminal has been arrested. Umm, this is a good thing, isn't it?
That's like the best case scenario, not the worst.
Although now that I’ve skimmed the enacted version, I’m not sure it requires citizens to carry papers either.
B. FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR A LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR A LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY OF A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE, WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON, EXCEPT IF THE DETERMINATION MAY HINDER OR OBSTRUCT AN INVESTIGATION. ANY PERSON WHO IS ARRESTED SHALL HAVE THE PERSON’S IMMIGRATION STATUS DETERMINED BEFORE THE PERSON IS RELEASED. THE PERSON’S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c). A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE MAY NOT SOLELY CONSIDER RACE, COLOR OR NATIONAL ORIGIN IN IMPLEMENTING THE REQUIREMENTS OF THIS SUBSECTION EXCEPT TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY THE UNITED STATES OR ARIZONA CONSTITUTION. A PERSON IS PRESUMED TO NOT BE AN ALIEN WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES IF THE PERSON PROVIDES TO THE LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER OR AGENCY ANY OF THE FOLLOWING:
1. A VALID ARIZONA DRIVER LICENSE.
2. A VALID ARIZONA NONOPERATING IDENTIFICATION LICENSE.
3. A VALID TRIBAL ENROLLMENT CARD OR OTHER FORM OF TRIBAL IDENTIFICATION.
4. IF THE ENTITY REQUIRES PROOF OF LEGAL PRESENCE IN THE UNITED STATES BEFORE ISSUANCE, ANY VALID UNITED STATES FEDERAL, STATE OR LOCAL GOVERNMENT ISSUED IDENTIFICATION.
B. FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR A LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR A LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY OF A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE, WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON, EXCEPT IF THE DETERMINATION MAY HINDER OR OBSTRUCT AN INVESTIGATION. ANY PERSON WHO IS ARRESTED SHALL HAVE THE PERSON’S IMMIGRATION STATUS DETERMINED BEFORE THE PERSON IS RELEASED. THE PERSON’S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c). A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE MAY NOT SOLELY CONSIDER RACE, COLOR OR NATIONAL ORIGIN IN IMPLEMENTING THE REQUIREMENTS OF THIS SUBSECTION EXCEPT TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY THE UNITED STATES OR ARIZONA CONSTITUTION. A PERSON IS PRESUMED TO NOT BE AN ALIEN WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES IF THE PERSON PROVIDES TO THE LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER OR AGENCY ANY OF THE FOLLOWING:
1. A VALID ARIZONA DRIVER LICENSE.
2. A VALID ARIZONA NONOPERATING IDENTIFICATION LICENSE.
3. A VALID TRIBAL ENROLLMENT CARD OR OTHER FORM OF TRIBAL IDENTIFICATION.
4. IF THE ENTITY REQUIRES PROOF OF LEGAL PRESENCE IN THE UNITED STATES BEFORE ISSUANCE, ANY VALID UNITED STATES FEDERAL, STATE OR LOCAL GOVERNMENT ISSUED IDENTIFICATION.
I've bolded the two important phrases: "lawful contact" and "reasonable suspicion"; these are pretty subjective phrases and the debate essentially revolves around them.
The “reasonable suspicion” requirement is still there (see yesterday’s post for more on that) but this version specifies that there have to be independent grounds for suspicion beyond race. Also new is the list of documents that someone can present to create a presumption that they’re here legally, although it’s unclear to me how that’ll work in practice. If you’re pulled over on suspicion of being illegal for whatever reason and you produce an Arizona driver’s license, does the cop then let you go (probably, in most cases) or does he get to hold you while he tries to come up with further evidence to overcome the presumption? Another open question — and this is the key for civil libertarians — is whether “reasonable suspicion” can be formed simply by virtue of the fact that the suspect isn’t carrying one of the ID types listed. If so, then cops could theoretically start pulling people aside on the sidewalk and hauling them in if they don’t produce their “papers.” I don’t read this section that way; it sounds like “reasonable suspicion” must exist before any “reasonable attempt” to verify the suspect’s immigration status is made. But if I’m misreading it and “reasonable suspicion” is satisfied if the suspect is guilty of nothing more than being Latino and forgetting his driver’s license at home, then they’re going to have a Category Five legal and political clusterfark on their hands when the first American citizens of Hispanic descent are mistakenly arrested.
I'm glad that local driver licenses are at least accepted. But aren't there some states that will issue DL's to illegal aliens? I wonder if they will keep a list of which state DL's are OK and which are not.
There’s another section about ID later on:
A. IN ADDITION TO ANY VIOLATION OF FEDERAL LAW, A PERSON IS GUILTY OF WILLFUL FAILURE TO COMPLETE OR CARRY AN ALIEN REGISTRATION DOCUMENT IF THE PERSON IS IN VIOLATION OF 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1304(e) OR 1306(a).
Translation: If you’re here legally and you’re caught without your “papers,” i.e. your green card, you’re going to be fined. Obviously, though, this section doesn’t apply to citizens, and the carry requirement is already part of federal law. All this does is make it a crime under Arizona law too.
A. IN ADDITION TO ANY VIOLATION OF FEDERAL LAW, A PERSON IS GUILTY OF WILLFUL FAILURE TO COMPLETE OR CARRY AN ALIEN REGISTRATION DOCUMENT IF THE PERSON IS IN VIOLATION OF 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1304(e) OR 1306(a).
Translation: If you’re here legally and you’re caught without your “papers,” i.e. your green card, you’re going to be fined. Obviously, though, this section doesn’t apply to citizens, and the carry requirement is already part of federal law. All this does is make it a crime under Arizona law too.
Yes, well, it is now an enforced law (or soon-to-be enforced) instead of one of many unenforced laws.
The more I think about it, the more I think this law is little more than a bargaining chip Arizona’s using to make the feds get serious about enforcement. They surely realize they’ll have no end of headaches from passing this thing, but no matter how much it backfires, they’ll still get to point at Washington and say, “You drove us to these desperate measures!” — which will put that much more pressure on Congress to seal the border when it finally takes up a new amnesty bill. Newly minted immigration hardliner John McCain is already playing that angle to the hilt, which means it’s open season for the rest of the Republican caucus to follow suit. I just hope The Artist Formerly Known as Maverick is prepared for damage control if/when Arizona cops start arresting American citizens. Won’t be pretty.
That could make sense, although personally I don't give the politicians credit for that much foresight.
This message last edited by BlackAdder on 26/04/2010 at 11:48:39 PM
The Arizona immigration bill thingy
26/04/2010 12:57:20 AM
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what do you expect from one of the last states to accept MLK day?
26/04/2010 01:19:03 AM
- 1151 Views
Yes, well, at least you are in the 27% of Americans that have a Passport.
26/04/2010 01:48:44 AM
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It will only take a few times getting their asses sued off for detaining U.S. citizens against...
26/04/2010 05:54:49 AM
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Yeah, I can't wait 'til a Latino state representative is arrested for looking illegal.
26/04/2010 07:26:13 AM
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or even better, a celebrity. I choose Antonia Banderas (when he has the funky beard hobo look) *NM*
26/04/2010 12:32:18 PM
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Looks like no one knows how bad it is along the border
26/04/2010 06:19:24 AM
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Oh please! The immigration and drug problems don't justify bad legislation.
26/04/2010 07:02:54 AM
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Some thoughts
26/04/2010 06:42:02 AM
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It's not just outrageous; it's plain stupid. The latter is almost as offensive as the former.
26/04/2010 07:30:30 AM
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Sounds more like a bill to convince people they are doing something than to do something
26/04/2010 12:43:19 PM
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What I find interesting about all this...
26/04/2010 01:06:08 PM
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It is interesting to see how it contrasts with your take on it, being from a country with them
26/04/2010 02:11:18 PM
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Perhaps I'm wrong, but...
26/04/2010 01:49:13 PM
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I don't know about the green cards
26/04/2010 03:05:49 PM
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That last point doesn't really make any sense.
26/04/2010 03:20:19 PM
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my point was that the punishments for the similar crimes are so different.
26/04/2010 04:23:08 PM
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The law will be overturned but it may help to get the federal government off their collective ass
26/04/2010 02:59:11 PM
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The law will most likely not be overturned.
26/04/2010 03:13:24 PM
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The law will be overturned but it may help to get the federal government off their collective ass *NM*
26/04/2010 03:20:45 PM
- 436 Views
The law will be overturned but it may help to get the federal government off their collective ass *NM*
26/04/2010 06:53:32 PM
- 386 Views
The law will be overturned but it may help to get the federal government off their collective ass *NM*
26/04/2010 08:33:04 PM
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The federal government will be collective ass but it may help to get the law off their overturned *NM*
27/04/2010 05:33:42 AM
- 405 Views
Their collective ass will be overturned but it may help to get the law off the federal government *NM*
27/04/2010 09:18:02 AM
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It's interesting how this sort of mirrors the Belgian issues.
26/04/2010 03:34:59 PM
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the "overrunning" of culture and language is exaggerated, imo
26/04/2010 04:34:56 PM
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I think the primary problem - in both cases - is language, yes.
26/04/2010 04:54:55 PM
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*shrug* I don't know. I just think that people are way too uptight about the issue
26/04/2010 05:02:30 PM
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the differences really are not that minor
28/04/2010 06:49:33 PM
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hmm, see
28/04/2010 07:10:42 PM
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I am from San Antonio I have always been able to buy burritos from my neighbors
28/04/2010 08:28:45 PM
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When I say relatively minor, it's because I'm thinking of those *other* assimilation problems here
28/04/2010 10:30:04 PM
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It should rattle anyone who lives in a democracy and who likes their way of life
28/04/2010 11:15:18 PM
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More power to the government! and We took that land fair and square! *NM*
26/04/2010 04:43:15 PM
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I'm going to take a common sense approach on this for a minute
26/04/2010 09:05:21 PM
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Re: I'm going to take a common sense approach on this for a minute
26/04/2010 11:48:14 PM
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Will the will of the people of Arizona be respected?
27/04/2010 12:12:46 AM
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That's funny...
27/04/2010 01:57:14 AM
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echo chamber much?
27/04/2010 04:14:53 PM
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there's also 53% of us who think this will lead to violating civil rights.
27/04/2010 05:19:29 PM
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Re: there's also 53% of us who think this will lead to violating civil rights.
28/04/2010 12:40:42 PM
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Also, the potential economic consequences of the law could be severe for Arizona.
27/04/2010 01:03:54 AM
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activist group liberal group claims it will cost money, what a shocker *NM*
27/04/2010 04:23:11 PM
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It will cost money
27/04/2010 09:16:31 PM
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but all of that ignores the long term savings
28/04/2010 03:24:50 PM
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it's less a matter of american tourism
28/04/2010 04:06:50 PM
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if they law is enforced it will decrease the number of illegals who go to Arizona
28/04/2010 06:35:26 PM
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I don't see any real long term savings coming from this.
28/04/2010 10:17:26 PM
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70% of the people in Arizona support the new law and 30% of the state is Hispanic
28/04/2010 10:51:08 PM
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real science?
28/04/2010 11:06:13 PM
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I linked to it further up the thread and you responded
28/04/2010 11:19:51 PM
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