Ta'veren is not a power, it is an accomodation with what the Pattern demands of certain people
Cannoli Send a noteboard - 12/04/2010 02:56:57 PM
Except that half of Hawkwing's greatness had to do with his supernatural power that bent reality to his will. Even if this is excusable, after his first wife died he became a tyrant and it was only through the intervention of his second wife that the world survived his wrath. Secondly, he became a puppet for one of the Forsaken, and died a madman.
His tyranny is only called such because it was out of character for HIM. By anyone else's standards it was business as usual, and the only evidence that he is the puppet of a Forsaken is the vainglorious boasting of nihilistic villain afflicted with three thousand years of exposure to the True Power, drawn from the same evil as the taint that drives saidin weilders mad. Ba'alzamon's bragging is not a remotely credible source. All things being equal, it is just as likely that HE was the one being bent to the other's will.
As for the issue of ta'veren, it is no different than the special protections other kings get with the divine right and so on. Given that all known ta'veren have been extraordinarily talented individuals it is as likely that his personal qualities resulted in his being picked out for greatness as the candidate who could best serve whatever purpose the Pattern had in mind (IMO, uniting humanity to forestall the Trolloc Wars 2), as that his achievements are based solely on some superpowered boost.
Actually, the ta'veren factor works even more to his credit, because the expansionist conqueror seldom makes for a good ruler. As we know from the books however, a ta'veren is driven along his course and must achieve what the Pattern wants him to or die. Hawkwing, according to his biography, was a good ruler who was content to stay at home and tend his nation, but was driven to conquest by necessity, implicitly by the mandate of the Pattern, and explicitly by the hostility of the White Tower.
Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
The greatest King in Fantasy
09/04/2010 05:18:42 AM
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King Arthur. Hands down.
09/04/2010 06:40:15 AM
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I would argue with you.
09/04/2010 06:54:53 AM
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That's the point, though. Arthur's humanity is what makes him so admirable.
09/04/2010 06:59:07 AM
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I have to agree with Dannymac
09/04/2010 02:04:44 PM
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But he's not in a modern fantasy novel.
09/04/2010 07:37:14 PM
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when I read the actual book...
10/04/2010 12:08:21 AM
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"The actual character"? Which of the countless different ones? *NM*
10/04/2010 12:21:00 AM
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i mean the actual character of Arthur in the actual book.
10/04/2010 12:51:44 AM
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There isn't an "actual book." Le Morte d'Arthur is a relatively early compilation of legends. *NM*
10/04/2010 03:09:40 AM
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I'm going with the most likely historical version of King Arthur
09/04/2010 06:45:26 PM
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My money is still on Aragorn
09/04/2010 12:47:43 PM
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Aragorn is so awesome...
09/04/2010 02:05:42 PM
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Arwen's character is just never fleshed out, though.
09/04/2010 02:18:30 PM
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Re: Arwen's character is just never fleshed out, though.
09/04/2010 02:49:45 PM
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Mostly, yes, but there are a few exceptions - Galadriel, Eowyn, and above all Luthien.
09/04/2010 03:32:00 PM
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Re: Mostly, yes, but there are a few exceptions - Galadriel, Eowyn, and above all Luthien.
09/04/2010 03:45:37 PM
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I can't agree about the goddesses.
09/04/2010 04:34:15 PM
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Re: I can't agree about the goddesses.
09/04/2010 04:55:34 PM
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If Tacitus and Graves were accurate
09/04/2010 05:09:20 PM
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Re: If Tacitus and Graves were accurate
09/04/2010 05:26:43 PM
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I rather liked her depiction in Rome.
09/04/2010 05:34:37 PM
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Re: I can't agree about the goddesses.
09/04/2010 05:02:50 PM
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Nienna, the Valier of Mercy, was single and a wanderer. She's not the most powerful, but...
09/04/2010 06:55:23 PM
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Re: Nienna, the Valier of Mercy, was single and a wanderer. She's not the most powerful, but...
09/04/2010 07:04:37 PM
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thought of a better example: Arien the Maia of the Sun was single and far more powerful than Tilion
09/04/2010 09:17:34 PM
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Re: I can't agree about the goddesses.
09/04/2010 05:06:49 PM
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That was my first assumption too, but evidently not. *NM*
09/04/2010 05:22:39 PM
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I changed it to Livia Augusta
Sheesh, you people-- a guy mistypes one time!! *NM*
09/04/2010 05:29:03 PM
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I call bullshit
09/04/2010 08:09:49 PM
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Re: I call bullshit
09/04/2010 08:31:16 PM
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Re: I call bullshit
10/04/2010 08:04:15 AM
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I didn't realize it was fashionable to call Tolkien sexist.
10/04/2010 05:12:07 PM
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He's good, but then he just doesn't have to face so many things.
09/04/2010 02:22:04 PM
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Doesn't have to face many things?
09/04/2010 07:59:27 PM
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As in, there are many important aspects of being king he doesn't have to face.
09/04/2010 08:07:16 PM
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well technically speaking he WAS the king when he did all those things.
10/04/2010 12:15:26 AM
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Re: Doesn't have to face many things?
09/04/2010 08:38:51 PM
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Re: Doesn't have to face many things?
10/04/2010 08:24:33 AM
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I'm sure there are many, but one coming to mind is Prince Josua from Memory, Sorrow and Thorn
09/04/2010 02:23:57 PM
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I'm going to go with a tie...
09/04/2010 04:22:42 PM
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Rohan was a whiny hypocritical bitch who failed at the only real test of rulership he ever faced.
10/04/2010 02:51:34 AM
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Artur Hawkwing
10/04/2010 03:34:02 AM
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Alexander the Great?
*NM*
10/04/2010 05:08:25 AM
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AH conquered more, did better, & was not a huge d-bag. Alex would have commissioned that big statue *NM*
12/04/2010 03:00:39 PM
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And both managed to have their so-called "empires" crumble within a year of their death. *NM*
12/04/2010 06:12:20 PM
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Which just reinforces how awesome AH was - no one else could do what he did
13/04/2010 11:50:54 AM
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???
10/04/2010 10:30:13 AM
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Ta'veren is not a power, it is an accomodation with what the Pattern demands of certain people
12/04/2010 02:56:57 PM
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What's the name of the Lemur-thing that's the King in "the penguins of madagascar"? He gets my vote! *NM*
14/04/2010 04:46:42 AM
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