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Re: I call bullshit Camilla Send a noteboard - 10/04/2010 08:04:15 AM


Arwen has to deal with prejudice from the author...I love the books, but it is clear that Tolkien is sexist.


That accusation REALLY angers me. Have you read the book? Or did you just watch the stupid films?



....Camilla, I've read the books numerous times. All of them; including: The Silmarillion, The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings Trilogy, The Lost Tales, The unifinished ones, The Children of Hurin... if you read our conversation on this post, you'd understand what I meant. I don't mean she is forced to wash dishes and produce babies, I simply feel it is a reflection of the times.

Why in the hell would I post on a book forum if all I did was watch the movies? I'm not that classy.


I am sorry. I am just so fed up with that claim. I may have been a little sharp. It is just that ever since it became fashionable to call Tolkien sexist this claim is delivered as a give truth without any real backing in the text.

a. Tolkien cannot be called sexist simply because he writes about a sexist culture. The extrapolation from work to author does not hold. Nor does it go the other way. Tolkien may have been sexist; he may not have been. No way of telling.

b. Whether the culture he writes about is sexist, well, that is very much open to question (as I can see has already been debated). But a facile "women don't fulfil the criteria of a strong man (ie. battle prowess)" is the stupidest argument I come across (and the most common) (yes, I am getting angry again as I type. Please forgive). I am so sick and tired of modern authors who think feminism is inverting the roles or riddling their books with female rulers and generals. It hampers their writing, and they are probably doing it because Tolkien was accused of anything from sexism to racism. It leads to overcompensation. I digress.

c. Apart from the NUMEROUS leading ladies already mentioned, I draw your attention to Gandalf's words to Eomer when Eowyn is ill:

`My friend,' said Gandalf, ´you had horses, and deeds of arms, and the free fields; but she, born in the body of a maid, had a spirit and courage at least the match of yours. Yet she was doomed to wait upon an old man, whom she loved as a father, and watch hm falling into a mean dishonoured dotage; and her part seemed to her more ignoble than that of the staff he leaned on.
...
But who knows what she spoke to the darkness, alone, in the bitter watches of the night, when all her life seemed shrinking, and the walls of her bower closing in about her, a hutch to trammel some wild thing in?'


About as clear a statement of first wave feminism as you are likely to get. Unless you are looking for happy women tractordrivers, which is the result of this demand for bloody strong women all the time. Social realism did not give us many good works of art.
*MySmiley*
structured procrastinator
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The greatest King in Fantasy - 09/04/2010 05:18:42 AM 1817 Views
King Arthur. Hands down. - 09/04/2010 06:40:15 AM 1212 Views
I would argue with you. - 09/04/2010 06:54:53 AM 1163 Views
That's the point, though. Arthur's humanity is what makes him so admirable. - 09/04/2010 06:59:07 AM 1208 Views
I have to agree with Dannymac - 09/04/2010 02:04:44 PM 1207 Views
But he's not in a modern fantasy novel. - 09/04/2010 07:37:14 PM 1227 Views
when I read the actual book... - 10/04/2010 12:08:21 AM 1221 Views
I'm going with the most likely historical version of King Arthur - 09/04/2010 06:45:26 PM 1255 Views
My money is still on Aragorn - 09/04/2010 12:47:43 PM 1326 Views
Aragorn is so awesome... - 09/04/2010 02:05:42 PM 1174 Views
Arwen's character is just never fleshed out, though. - 09/04/2010 02:18:30 PM 1147 Views
Re: Arwen's character is just never fleshed out, though. - 09/04/2010 02:49:45 PM 1208 Views
Hm - 09/04/2010 03:23:53 PM 1258 Views
Mostly, yes, but there are a few exceptions - Galadriel, Eowyn, and above all Luthien. - 09/04/2010 03:32:00 PM 1160 Views
Re: Mostly, yes, but there are a few exceptions - Galadriel, Eowyn, and above all Luthien. - 09/04/2010 03:45:37 PM 1413 Views
I can't agree about the goddesses. - 09/04/2010 04:34:15 PM 1288 Views
Re: I can't agree about the goddesses. - 09/04/2010 04:55:34 PM 1151 Views
If Tacitus and Graves were accurate - 09/04/2010 05:09:20 PM 1235 Views
Re: If Tacitus and Graves were accurate - 09/04/2010 05:26:43 PM 1168 Views
I rather liked her depiction in Rome. - 09/04/2010 05:34:37 PM 1235 Views
Re: I rather liked her depiction in Rome. - 09/04/2010 05:45:06 PM 1302 Views
Re: I rather liked her depiction in Rome. - 10/04/2010 11:14:26 AM 1322 Views
I don't know if I'd call it bad, per se. - 10/04/2010 11:37:55 AM 1400 Views
Re: I can't agree about the goddesses. - 09/04/2010 05:02:50 PM 1203 Views
Eh, the other Vala don't do much of anything either. - 09/04/2010 05:31:42 PM 1161 Views
Re: Eh, the other Vala don't do much of anything either. - 09/04/2010 05:44:03 PM 1204 Views
Re: I can't agree about the goddesses. - 09/04/2010 05:06:49 PM 1319 Views
I call bullshit - 09/04/2010 08:09:49 PM 1155 Views
Re: I call bullshit - 09/04/2010 08:31:16 PM 1174 Views
Re: I call bullshit - 10/04/2010 08:04:15 AM 1256 Views
I didn't realize it was fashionable to call Tolkien sexist. - 10/04/2010 05:12:07 PM 1250 Views
Re: I didn't realize it was fashionable to call Tolkien sexist. - 12/04/2010 11:00:23 AM 1123 Views
Exactly. - 13/04/2010 03:08:46 AM 1221 Views
Re: Exactly. - 13/04/2010 08:54:01 AM 1299 Views
I was going to say something similar. - 09/04/2010 03:21:45 PM 1181 Views
Re: Aragorn is so awesome... - 09/04/2010 08:00:25 PM 1169 Views
Re: Aragorn is so awesome... - 09/04/2010 08:37:12 PM 1177 Views
He's good, but then he just doesn't have to face so many things. - 09/04/2010 02:22:04 PM 1480 Views
Doesn't have to face many things? - 09/04/2010 07:59:27 PM 1223 Views
Re: Doesn't have to face many things? - 09/04/2010 08:38:51 PM 1061 Views
Re: Doesn't have to face many things? - 10/04/2010 08:24:33 AM 1165 Views
Re: Doesn't have to face many things? - 10/04/2010 05:08:42 PM 1311 Views
Re: Doesn't have to face many things? - 12/04/2010 10:55:12 AM 1158 Views
He really wasn't a king in majority of the story though - 12/04/2010 05:54:23 PM 1110 Views
I'm sure there are many, but one coming to mind is Prince Josua from Memory, Sorrow and Thorn - 09/04/2010 02:23:57 PM 1169 Views
Oh yeah I liked him a lot *NM* - 09/04/2010 04:09:59 PM 553 Views
Josua Lackhand is a great fantasy King! - 09/04/2010 05:14:39 PM 1230 Views
Arutha was never King. *NM* - 09/04/2010 07:18:30 PM 533 Views
I'm going to go with a tie... - 09/04/2010 04:22:42 PM 1188 Views
Joffrey and the Stag! *NM* - 09/04/2010 09:53:56 PM 534 Views
ROFL *NM* - 09/04/2010 11:39:36 PM 507 Views
Artur Hawkwing - 10/04/2010 03:34:02 AM 1323 Views
??? - 10/04/2010 10:30:13 AM 1570 Views
Simba *NM* - 10/04/2010 08:40:38 AM 580 Views
Manwe - 10/04/2010 10:31:54 AM 1473 Views
Bah. He's hardly a character. *NM* - 12/04/2010 01:07:29 AM 661 Views
Arutha, the Prince of Krondor - 12/04/2010 01:06:14 AM 1232 Views
Westley - 13/04/2010 02:59:36 AM 1159 Views
Leto Atreides II - 13/04/2010 05:07:29 AM 1124 Views
I'll agree with that! *NM* - 13/04/2010 11:33:10 AM 534 Views

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