Arwen has to deal with prejudice from the author...I love the books, but it is clear that Tolkien is sexist.
That accusation REALLY angers me. Have you read the book? Or did you just watch the stupid films?
....Camilla, I've read the books numerous times. All of them; including: The Silmarillion, The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings Trilogy, The Lost Tales, The unifinished ones, The Children of Hurin... if you read our conversation on this post, you'd understand what I meant. I don't mean she is forced to wash dishes and produce babies, I simply feel it is a reflection of the times.
Why in the hell would I post on a book forum if all I did was watch the movies? I'm not that classy.
I am sorry. I am just so fed up with that claim. I may have been a little sharp. It is just that ever since it became fashionable to call Tolkien sexist this claim is delivered as a give truth without any real backing in the text.
a. Tolkien cannot be called sexist simply because he writes about a sexist culture. The extrapolation from work to author does not hold. Nor does it go the other way. Tolkien may have been sexist; he may not have been. No way of telling.
b. Whether the culture he writes about is sexist, well, that is very much open to question (as I can see has already been debated). But a facile "women don't fulfil the criteria of a strong man (ie. battle prowess)" is the stupidest argument I come across (and the most common) (yes, I am getting angry again as I type. Please forgive). I am so sick and tired of modern authors who think feminism is inverting the roles or riddling their books with female rulers and generals. It hampers their writing, and they are probably doing it because Tolkien was accused of anything from sexism to racism. It leads to overcompensation. I digress.
c. Apart from the NUMEROUS leading ladies already mentioned, I draw your attention to Gandalf's words to Eomer when Eowyn is ill:
`My friend,' said Gandalf, ´you had horses, and deeds of arms, and the free fields; but she, born in the body of a maid, had a spirit and courage at least the match of yours. Yet she was doomed to wait upon an old man, whom she loved as a father, and watch hm falling into a mean dishonoured dotage; and her part seemed to her more ignoble than that of the staff he leaned on.
...
But who knows what she spoke to the darkness, alone, in the bitter watches of the night, when all her life seemed shrinking, and the walls of her bower closing in about her, a hutch to trammel some wild thing in?'
About as clear a statement of first wave feminism as you are likely to get. Unless you are looking for happy women tractordrivers, which is the result of this demand for bloody strong women all the time. Social realism did not give us many good works of art.
*MySmiley*
structured procrastinator
structured procrastinator
The greatest King in Fantasy
09/04/2010 05:18:42 AM
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King Arthur. Hands down.
09/04/2010 06:40:15 AM
- 1212 Views
I would argue with you.
09/04/2010 06:54:53 AM
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That's the point, though. Arthur's humanity is what makes him so admirable.
09/04/2010 06:59:07 AM
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I have to agree with Dannymac
09/04/2010 02:04:44 PM
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But he's not in a modern fantasy novel.
09/04/2010 07:37:14 PM
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when I read the actual book...
10/04/2010 12:08:21 AM
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"The actual character"? Which of the countless different ones? *NM*
10/04/2010 12:21:00 AM
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i mean the actual character of Arthur in the actual book.
10/04/2010 12:51:44 AM
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There isn't an "actual book." Le Morte d'Arthur is a relatively early compilation of legends. *NM*
10/04/2010 03:09:40 AM
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I'm going with the most likely historical version of King Arthur
09/04/2010 06:45:26 PM
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My money is still on Aragorn
09/04/2010 12:47:43 PM
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Aragorn is so awesome...
09/04/2010 02:05:42 PM
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Arwen's character is just never fleshed out, though.
09/04/2010 02:18:30 PM
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Re: Arwen's character is just never fleshed out, though.
09/04/2010 02:49:45 PM
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Mostly, yes, but there are a few exceptions - Galadriel, Eowyn, and above all Luthien.
09/04/2010 03:32:00 PM
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Re: Mostly, yes, but there are a few exceptions - Galadriel, Eowyn, and above all Luthien.
09/04/2010 03:45:37 PM
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I can't agree about the goddesses.
09/04/2010 04:34:15 PM
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Re: I can't agree about the goddesses.
09/04/2010 04:55:34 PM
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If Tacitus and Graves were accurate
09/04/2010 05:09:20 PM
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Re: If Tacitus and Graves were accurate
09/04/2010 05:26:43 PM
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I rather liked her depiction in Rome.
09/04/2010 05:34:37 PM
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Re: I can't agree about the goddesses.
09/04/2010 05:02:50 PM
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Nienna, the Valier of Mercy, was single and a wanderer. She's not the most powerful, but...
09/04/2010 06:55:23 PM
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Re: Nienna, the Valier of Mercy, was single and a wanderer. She's not the most powerful, but...
09/04/2010 07:04:37 PM
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thought of a better example: Arien the Maia of the Sun was single and far more powerful than Tilion
09/04/2010 09:17:34 PM
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Re: I can't agree about the goddesses.
09/04/2010 05:06:49 PM
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That was my first assumption too, but evidently not. *NM*
09/04/2010 05:22:39 PM
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I changed it to Livia Augusta Sheesh, you people-- a guy mistypes one time!! *NM*
09/04/2010 05:29:03 PM
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I call bullshit
09/04/2010 08:09:49 PM
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Re: I call bullshit
09/04/2010 08:31:16 PM
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Re: I call bullshit
10/04/2010 08:04:15 AM
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I didn't realize it was fashionable to call Tolkien sexist.
10/04/2010 05:12:07 PM
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He's good, but then he just doesn't have to face so many things.
09/04/2010 02:22:04 PM
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Doesn't have to face many things?
09/04/2010 07:59:27 PM
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As in, there are many important aspects of being king he doesn't have to face.
09/04/2010 08:07:16 PM
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well technically speaking he WAS the king when he did all those things.
10/04/2010 12:15:26 AM
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Re: Doesn't have to face many things?
09/04/2010 08:38:51 PM
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Re: Doesn't have to face many things?
10/04/2010 08:24:33 AM
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I'm sure there are many, but one coming to mind is Prince Josua from Memory, Sorrow and Thorn
09/04/2010 02:23:57 PM
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I'm going to go with a tie...
09/04/2010 04:22:42 PM
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Rohan was a whiny hypocritical bitch who failed at the only real test of rulership he ever faced.
10/04/2010 02:51:34 AM
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Artur Hawkwing
10/04/2010 03:34:02 AM
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Alexander the Great? *NM*
10/04/2010 05:08:25 AM
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AH conquered more, did better, & was not a huge d-bag. Alex would have commissioned that big statue *NM*
12/04/2010 03:00:39 PM
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And both managed to have their so-called "empires" crumble within a year of their death. *NM*
12/04/2010 06:12:20 PM
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Which just reinforces how awesome AH was - no one else could do what he did
13/04/2010 11:50:54 AM
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???
10/04/2010 10:30:13 AM
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Ta'veren is not a power, it is an accomodation with what the Pattern demands of certain people
12/04/2010 02:56:57 PM
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What's the name of the Lemur-thing that's the King in "the penguins of madagascar"? He gets my vote! *NM*
14/04/2010 04:46:42 AM
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