The books take place in a time and place where the social mores are very different than our world. Life is not as valuable to people of this primitive (by our standards) society, and because of this we can not honestly judge them by the values of our world and our time. Just as we cannot honestly judge historical figures from our worlds ancient history using our values and beliefs. To do so, we would have to then say that just about every leader of the ancient world was evil, from Marcus Crassus (who crucified several thousand revolting slaves along the road to Rome after he put down Spartacus) to Caesar who crucified the pirates that had taken him hostage after he was ransomed.
Evil is such a tricky term, especially when you are looking at the situation through the filter of modern values and mores.
I am not trying to in any way condone the actions of Jaime or Cersei et al, yet what they did they did to protect their children and family. Any parent would do whatever was necessary to save the lives of their children, even if it meant doing somehting horrible. I challenge anyone on this board to HONESTLY say that they would not kill someone to protect their child. If you say you wouldn't then either you are not a parent, or you are a liar.
I will agree that Littlefinger is much more evil than Arya, but he was not on that list. Hell, Khal Drogo could be said to be evil as well (treatment of defeated peoples, slavery, and even the way he executed Viserys) by our modern standards, but when taken in CONTEXT of the setting, he was not that bad. Nobody has even mentioned him at all, which just goes to show that even with our Filtered view we don't think of him as evil. Personally, I found Ned Stark's execution of Gared to be an evil act. The man was not in any right frame of mind, totally consumed by the fear instilled by the Others. And yet, to most fans of the books, Ned Stark was a hero from the beginning.
Cersei, by modern psychological standards, is (to use a technical term) BONKERS. To the layperson, you could say she is paranoid, delusional, potentially schizo, has anxiety disorders and who knows what else (not to forget that Freud would diagnose her with penis envy). She would be committed in a heartbeat today.
I still have to say that of the choices we had, Arya (for reason listed in several posts above) is the most evil on the list, even by the standards "of the day" we see in the books.
Well your repeated use of the term evil, which is in itself extremely limiting, does make the argument difficult to carry out. Remember this not the WHEEL OF TIME where evil is a sort of taint that seeps into people from a supernatural origin. There are only people, morality and motivations, and no-one's motivation is to be evil for the sake of it.
Jaime and Cersei tried to kill Bran (well Jaime did, Cersei was against it) because they feared he would expose them and the two of them and their three children would die horribly as a result. The protection of Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella is Cersei's primary motivation offsetting everything else, and although she takes it to pathological extremes, it isn't the case of her being 'evil' for the sake of it.
Jaime's evil acts in the books in fact are a lot harder to define. He killed Eddard's guards (in battle, although outnumbered) to send a warning message to Eddard's wife for taking his brother hostage. He killed Aerys to save King's Landing from being blown sky high. As already mentioned, he did try to murder Bran but then his fate and the fate of his sister and his children was on the line. That doesn't offset the evil of the act, but does at least rationalize it by his own standards (and his crime was, if not forgiven, at least commuted by Bran's mother when she released him from Riverrun). The other people Jaime killed in the books (Karstark's sons, for example) were in warfare and battle.
Plus later on, Jaime did repent his actions and swore a new oath to uphold the honour of the Kingsguard and his former promise to Cat, which against the odds he has fulfilled so far (by taking Riverrun without bloodshed and sparing the castle garrison and survivors).
Fair point that Theon's actions can be considered evil (the two children were the children of the miller Theon passed earlier on in his hunt for the children). However, Theon did know that Bran and Rickon were hiding in the crypts. He just chose not to pursue them down there. Does that act redeem his evil elsewhere (probably not, although his acts in ADWD will be interesting to observe based on this)? Probably not. Your point here is a good one.
At this stage Arya believes Bran and Rickon to be dead and knows that Sansa is a captive or missing. That leaves her as the senior-most Stark still at liberty as far as she knows, and the punishment of a deserter from the Night's Watch falls on her (as it fell on Ned to execute Gared in the prologue to the first book).
By modern standards, no, you wouldn't pursue and execute a traitor in a foreign nation without some sort of extradition process (unless you're Russian, of course, and think you can get away with it). But, as should have been made clear, the books are not set in a modern setting.
The Faceless Men are certainly a murderous and ruthless organisation, despite their shapeshifting friendly-seeming old men tutors. They did claim to cause the Doom as well because of the actions of the slave overseers, an event that caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocents, if not millions including the Bleeding Years that followed, across two continents. Certainly they are not good people, despite their religious justifications.
But using your 'evil acts' citation, Littlefinger caused the War of the Five Kings almost single-handed (of course, Illyrio and Varys were going to trigger a war as well, but not until a year or two later), orchestrated Joffrey's death which has now ultimately triggered a renewal of the conflict and (possibly inadvertantly) set the scenes for a massive religious conflageration. In terms of deaths caused in the books, Littlefinger probably outstrips almost everyone else combined. His only challenger may be Daenerys, for the war and death she has brought to Slaver's Bay.
Evil is such a tricky term, especially when you are looking at the situation through the filter of modern values and mores.
I am not trying to in any way condone the actions of Jaime or Cersei et al, yet what they did they did to protect their children and family. Any parent would do whatever was necessary to save the lives of their children, even if it meant doing somehting horrible. I challenge anyone on this board to HONESTLY say that they would not kill someone to protect their child. If you say you wouldn't then either you are not a parent, or you are a liar.
I will agree that Littlefinger is much more evil than Arya, but he was not on that list. Hell, Khal Drogo could be said to be evil as well (treatment of defeated peoples, slavery, and even the way he executed Viserys) by our modern standards, but when taken in CONTEXT of the setting, he was not that bad. Nobody has even mentioned him at all, which just goes to show that even with our Filtered view we don't think of him as evil. Personally, I found Ned Stark's execution of Gared to be an evil act. The man was not in any right frame of mind, totally consumed by the fear instilled by the Others. And yet, to most fans of the books, Ned Stark was a hero from the beginning.
Cersei, by modern psychological standards, is (to use a technical term) BONKERS. To the layperson, you could say she is paranoid, delusional, potentially schizo, has anxiety disorders and who knows what else (not to forget that Freud would diagnose her with penis envy). She would be committed in a heartbeat today.
I still have to say that of the choices we had, Arya (for reason listed in several posts above) is the most evil on the list, even by the standards "of the day" we see in the books.
So if you're a selfish jerk with no concern for the consequences to others, murder is no longer evil?
Well your repeated use of the term evil, which is in itself extremely limiting, does make the argument difficult to carry out. Remember this not the WHEEL OF TIME where evil is a sort of taint that seeps into people from a supernatural origin. There are only people, morality and motivations, and no-one's motivation is to be evil for the sake of it.
Jaime and Cersei tried to kill Bran (well Jaime did, Cersei was against it) because they feared he would expose them and the two of them and their three children would die horribly as a result. The protection of Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella is Cersei's primary motivation offsetting everything else, and although she takes it to pathological extremes, it isn't the case of her being 'evil' for the sake of it.
Jaime's evil acts in the books in fact are a lot harder to define. He killed Eddard's guards (in battle, although outnumbered) to send a warning message to Eddard's wife for taking his brother hostage. He killed Aerys to save King's Landing from being blown sky high. As already mentioned, he did try to murder Bran but then his fate and the fate of his sister and his children was on the line. That doesn't offset the evil of the act, but does at least rationalize it by his own standards (and his crime was, if not forgiven, at least commuted by Bran's mother when she released him from Riverrun). The other people Jaime killed in the books (Karstark's sons, for example) were in warfare and battle.
Plus later on, Jaime did repent his actions and swore a new oath to uphold the honour of the Kingsguard and his former promise to Cat, which against the odds he has fulfilled so far (by taking Riverrun without bloodshed and sparing the castle garrison and survivors).
In what world is "cruel and uncaring" not evil? HE IS A F***ING CHILD MURDERER! Or did you think he dug up two corpses that died of natural causes to hang over the gates of Winterfell? He MURDERED and SKINNED the children of a woman with whom he had a casual sexual dalliance during his time as them Starks' hostage, placed them over the wall, murdered his own man to cover up the truth, and then executed the kennelmaster for his own crime! On WHAT scale is this not a string of evil actions, compounded and piled atop each other? He never spared Bran and Rickon, he simply was outsmarted and failed to catch them. They were alive in his captivity not out of any inclination towards mercy, but as hostages.
Fair point that Theon's actions can be considered evil (the two children were the children of the miller Theon passed earlier on in his hunt for the children). However, Theon did know that Bran and Rickon were hiding in the crypts. He just chose not to pursue them down there. Does that act redeem his evil elsewhere (probably not, although his acts in ADWD will be interesting to observe based on this)? Probably not. Your point here is a good one.
She still had no business killing the deserter. He was beyond the Seven Kingdoms, and she had no lawful authority. But that's what Ned Stark teaches his kids, right? "When you see someone who belongs dead, accompany them into the dark and murder them by stealth, even if they are not doing you any harm." And her reasons don't matter - she is still a murderer, who is joining an organization of people who commit murder for money. They can spin all the stories they like about avenging wicked step-mothers. The actions we see of a Faceless Man in the books include murdering an elderly man at the behest of his reprehensible and irredeemable brother, murdering a student to infiltrate the Citadel, and murdering a servant because he aroused the ire of a child.
At this stage Arya believes Bran and Rickon to be dead and knows that Sansa is a captive or missing. That leaves her as the senior-most Stark still at liberty as far as she knows, and the punishment of a deserter from the Night's Watch falls on her (as it fell on Ned to execute Gared in the prologue to the first book).
By modern standards, no, you wouldn't pursue and execute a traitor in a foreign nation without some sort of extradition process (unless you're Russian, of course, and think you can get away with it). But, as should have been made clear, the books are not set in a modern setting.
The Faceless Men are certainly a murderous and ruthless organisation, despite their shapeshifting friendly-seeming old men tutors. They did claim to cause the Doom as well because of the actions of the slave overseers, an event that caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocents, if not millions including the Bleeding Years that followed, across two continents. Certainly they are not good people, despite their religious justifications.
Again, bullcrap. He is evil because of WHAT he did, not why he did it. And you don't even have the PoV trap excuse to protect your citing of the given reasons of a man who is a notorious and admitted liar. He is NOT doing this for amusement, but for his own aggrandizement and self-gratitifcation of his resentments, grudges and lusts nurtured for over a decade. Either way, it does not matter. He is evil because of his betrayals, murders, and conspiracies to commit or abet or conceal others' crimes.
But using your 'evil acts' citation, Littlefinger caused the War of the Five Kings almost single-handed (of course, Illyrio and Varys were going to trigger a war as well, but not until a year or two later), orchestrated Joffrey's death which has now ultimately triggered a renewal of the conflict and (possibly inadvertantly) set the scenes for a massive religious conflageration. In terms of deaths caused in the books, Littlefinger probably outstrips almost everyone else combined. His only challenger may be Daenerys, for the war and death she has brought to Slaver's Bay.
Death to the Regressives of the GOP and the TeaParty. No mercy for Conservatives. Burn them all at the stake for the hateful satanists they are.
ASoI&F Quickpoll: Evil characters
18/03/2010 02:04:24 PM
- 1304 Views
Re: ASoI&F Quickpoll: Evil characters
18/03/2010 02:32:48 PM
- 746 Views
Confusing likability with goodness
18/03/2010 08:59:40 PM
- 764 Views
Arya may not be "good"...
18/03/2010 09:15:46 PM
- 817 Views
Do you think a child can be evil? *NM*
18/03/2010 09:18:06 PM
- 319 Views
We sometimes hear about kids doing horrible things
18/03/2010 09:41:30 PM
- 650 Views
Is that because they may not understand the consequences of their actions?
18/03/2010 09:45:33 PM
- 714 Views
Most likely, yes. Plus their reasons for doing bad things lack deeper inferior motives.
18/03/2010 10:09:25 PM
- 750 Views
Arya is old enough to understand cause and effect...
18/03/2010 11:04:31 PM
- 837 Views
Soldiers do the same thing.
19/03/2010 03:23:35 AM
- 693 Views
Just what I was about to say, yeah *NM*
19/03/2010 07:55:47 AM
- 293 Views
Soldiers kill for the sake of their country, their cause, or their hope...
19/03/2010 11:24:16 PM
- 1068 Views
Re: Soldiers kill for the sake of their country, their cause, or their hope...
20/03/2010 12:29:55 AM
- 706 Views
Arya is not a soldier. Soldiers are not individually responsible for the results of war.
20/03/2010 11:22:43 PM
- 863 Views
Arya is legitimately the most evil...
18/03/2010 09:45:04 PM
- 1018 Views
No, she's not
18/03/2010 11:45:23 PM
- 696 Views
Cersei doesn't have true justification
18/03/2010 11:47:44 PM
- 821 Views
what he said! especially about Cersei being seriously mentally ill *NM*
19/03/2010 04:38:19 AM
- 275 Views
Re: Arya is legitimately the most evil...
19/03/2010 10:50:56 PM
- 689 Views
I was looking forward to his response as well.
19/03/2010 11:13:35 PM
- 795 Views
to be accurate, the child was not yet disabled when he was pushed from the tower
20/03/2010 10:52:42 PM
- 811 Views
Evil is such a limiting term to use.
20/03/2010 12:18:24 PM
- 666 Views
Try reading the books
20/03/2010 10:50:01 PM
- 876 Views
I've read them a few times.
21/03/2010 01:47:52 PM
- 755 Views
Just a "few" times?
21/03/2010 06:07:14 PM
- 832 Views
Only three times.
21/03/2010 11:20:12 PM
- 715 Views
Jon Connington- Hand to Aerys. Lost to Hoster, Eddard and Robert. Exiled. *NM*
22/03/2010 04:09:59 AM
- 337 Views
people seem to be forgetting
21/03/2010 09:11:04 PM
- 814 Views
ROFLMAO. Most people complain that my values are medieval & out of touch with the modern world!
23/03/2010 01:54:58 AM
- 1088 Views
To clarify, "evil" means VERY, VERY BAD.
23/03/2010 01:12:39 AM
- 920 Views