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Doesn't touchy-feely mean that it is steeped in or based on emotion? Camilla Send a noteboard - 27/01/2010 06:40:31 PM
Have I completely misunderstood that term all this time?

Maybe we should mention something about the smugglers who perished in the storm when Dantes escaped, or the constables who helped apprehend Cavalcanti, or how the cost of Danglars' meals is indicative of a commentary on the evils of inflation and speculation.

The problem that I have with your view of the text is that you imply any interpretation of the text is valid. That is what I deem to be "touchy-feely". It's part of a relativist approach to literature that I can't subscribe to.


I am not saying that just any interpretation of the text is valid. Far from it. If I did, studying literature would make no sense. A valid reading of the text needs to be well grounded in the text. But that is a far cry from saying there is only one valid interpretation, or that the text has one inherent message. If you are going to argue the one inherent message, you have to find something to ground it in. Simply saying "I don't like the text" is not an authority that can do that.

The funny thing is that you ask me if I feel I am qualified to be the arbiter when it is in fact I who am arguing that one individual can't claim to be the arbiter of the value or meaning of a work of literature. It is based on built consensus.


Not at all. I agree completely that one individual can't claim to be the arbiter of the value or meaning. Precisely because there isn't ONE meaning. One interpretation does not necessarily invalidate another. Different readings of a text can coexist quite cheerfully.

I agree that "hammering a moral" into the reader is often heavy-handed and usually falls flat. However, messages in literature are usually fairly clear. You can say, "I personally was intrigued by..." and then explain something that had relevance for you. However, the message of the book doesn't usually change as a result of it. This book was very light on substance. Frankly, I doubt Dumas would have a problem with that - he was writing a fun adventure story.


What Dumas intended is really beside the point. For all we know this was his attempt at substance. His intention is not accessible to us.
*MySmiley*
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The Count of Monte Cristo by Alexandre Dumas - Book Club now open! Rebekah - 25/01/2010 10:54:37 PM 2445 Views
Le plot. Rebekah - 25/01/2010 10:55:26 PM 1210 Views
Plot: demarcation, plan, complot... Camilla - 26/01/2010 11:48:19 PM 1341 Views
Les characters. Rebekah - 25/01/2010 10:56:23 PM 1297 Views
The good, the bad and the ugly. Camilla - 26/01/2010 10:54:38 AM 1316 Views
Hmm. snoopcester - 27/01/2010 03:58:31 PM 1235 Views
Re: Hmm. Camilla - 27/01/2010 04:59:12 PM 1303 Views
Re: Hmm. snoopcester - 28/01/2010 01:40:34 PM 1247 Views
Re: Hmm. Camilla - 01/02/2010 12:49:06 PM 1455 Views
Why does the book have enduring appeal? Rebekah - 25/01/2010 10:57:37 PM 1282 Views
Or rather, does this book share any traits in common with pornography? Larry - 25/01/2010 11:14:01 PM 1409 Views
I think the revenge plot is actually fairly weak. Tom - 26/01/2010 03:43:04 AM 1316 Views
Re: I think the revenge plot is actually fairly weak. Camilla - 26/01/2010 11:12:19 AM 1366 Views
In that case, the "release" is quite unsatisfying. Tom - 27/01/2010 01:42:28 PM 1474 Views
Which is precisely part of what makes the book interesting Camilla - 27/01/2010 02:06:58 PM 1362 Views
He would not have known the book would be ruined by water. He thought he was being buried. Tom - 27/01/2010 02:15:02 PM 1263 Views
He would still have to swim, being on an island Camilla - 27/01/2010 02:37:26 PM 1439 Views
Oh, and your point on revenge - that's just reading too much into the text. Tom - 27/01/2010 02:16:05 PM 1194 Views
There is no such thing Camilla - 27/01/2010 02:18:46 PM 1248 Views
I fundamentally disagree with your post-modern take on the novel. Tom - 27/01/2010 02:25:25 PM 1300 Views
It isn't a postmodern take on it Camilla - 27/01/2010 02:41:32 PM 1269 Views
Re: Which is precisely part of what makes the book interesting snoopcester - 27/01/2010 03:40:36 PM 1243 Views
Maybe it's of the same importance as the Lost Symbol. Tom - 27/01/2010 03:44:55 PM 1308 Views
If I ddin't know better, I might think you a trifle petulant snoopcester - 27/01/2010 04:19:57 PM 1368 Views
I'm never petulant Tom - 27/01/2010 04:55:56 PM 1239 Views
Re: Which is precisely part of what makes the book interesting Camilla - 27/01/2010 04:47:37 PM 1338 Views
I think one important question to ask is... Legolas - 26/01/2010 12:00:17 AM 1352 Views
I like it, but it is purely on the adventure story level, and I've read the unabridged version. Rebekah - 26/01/2010 12:03:01 AM 1201 Views
I'm fairly certain I read the unabridged version. It was 1500 pages. *NM* Tom - 26/01/2010 02:36:10 AM 683 Views
I have read the abridged version a couple of times. I am reading the unabridged version this time. Tashmere - 26/01/2010 03:25:50 AM 1294 Views
the potentially removable part... Camilla - 26/01/2010 11:24:16 AM 1356 Views
I have read both Camilla - 27/01/2010 01:37:00 AM 1375 Views
I actually didn't mean the people here on the site so much as readers in general. Legolas - 27/01/2010 01:44:46 AM 1358 Views
Re: I actually didn't mean the people here on the site so much as readers in general. Camilla - 27/01/2010 01:48:11 AM 1296 Views
The abridged versus the unabridged Ryan - 28/01/2010 06:32:22 AM 1288 Views
Re: Why does the book have enduring appeal? Camilla - 27/01/2010 01:16:47 AM 1414 Views
Re: Why does the book have enduring appeal? Dar Valon - 30/01/2010 09:12:22 AM 1302 Views
Re: I got here too late, so I offer Umberto Eco's thoughts on the matter: Danae al'Thor - 22/02/2010 06:59:13 PM 1476 Views
I'm watching right back, Big Brother. *NM* The Shrike - 25/01/2010 11:44:30 PM 660 Views
*NM* Rebekah - 25/01/2010 11:45:27 PM 645 Views
The book was very childish. Tom - 26/01/2010 03:05:01 AM 1413 Views
Granted, The Master and Margarita is also very much a fantasy book. *NM* Ghavrel - 26/01/2010 03:07:45 AM 679 Views
No, it really isn't. Tom - 26/01/2010 03:10:08 AM 1360 Views
You know, this is a problem. The Shrike - 26/01/2010 03:43:14 AM 1332 Views
Thank God, I've never even heard of "Skol". Popov, yes, but Skol? Tom - 26/01/2010 03:49:08 AM 1337 Views
I've not tried it, but every time I go into liquor stores, it sits on the bottom shelf. The Shrike - 26/01/2010 03:57:03 AM 1234 Views
There's really nothing I can say to this that Greg didn't just say above. Ghavrel - 26/01/2010 06:32:02 AM 1400 Views
People tend to forget one thing about Tolkien Tom - 26/01/2010 01:36:06 PM 1327 Views
Re: No, it really isn't. Camilla - 26/01/2010 10:57:19 AM 1263 Views
Having Camilla concur with me on literary matters is very encouraging. Tom - 26/01/2010 01:37:23 PM 1334 Views
I do not agree with your complete dismissal of The Count of Monte Cristo, though Camilla - 26/01/2010 04:58:58 PM 1289 Views
I'll admit the only Lem I've read is Solaris... Legolas - 26/01/2010 01:52:02 PM 1349 Views
Read His Master's Voice Camilla - 26/01/2010 04:52:31 PM 1265 Views
You make some rather odd claims here, Tom Larry - 27/01/2010 12:43:41 AM 1351 Views
You place undue importance on academic degrees. Ghavrel - 27/01/2010 01:19:40 AM 1341 Views
You misread totally what I said, I see... Larry - 27/01/2010 01:52:59 AM 1268 Views
My claims are far from odd. In fact, they're quite common. Tom - 27/01/2010 01:57:41 AM 1322 Views
In some circles; in others, they're rather antiquated nowadays Larry - 27/01/2010 02:21:03 AM 1256 Views
If you were trying to write literature, wouldn't the label sting for you? Tom - 27/01/2010 01:25:14 PM 1311 Views
I think it's easier to think of stories fitting into genre(s) than to think the same of authors Larry - 27/01/2010 02:40:29 PM 1374 Views
Allow me to clarify: I'm talking about authors' reactions to their books being so labelled. Tom - 27/01/2010 03:08:47 PM 1418 Views
But yet their reactions vary widely Larry - 27/01/2010 11:33:25 PM 1294 Views
My fundamental premise is that genre has the most utility when applied to derivative fiction. Tom - 28/01/2010 09:39:17 PM 1285 Views
And yet that term is mostly used as a non-loaded term that doesn't attempt to ascribe quality levels Larry - 29/01/2010 02:49:20 AM 1195 Views
I like my definition of science fiction better than the one you quoted. Tom - 29/01/2010 05:16:36 AM 1253 Views
I think estrangement is a key element, though Larry - 30/01/2010 11:00:19 PM 1225 Views
I don't think estrangement is a necessary element. Tom - 30/01/2010 11:47:07 PM 1431 Views
I mean it as a literary effect, that of creating a distance between text and reader Larry - 31/01/2010 12:03:34 AM 1232 Views
Even if that's the meaning, I still disagree. Tom - 03/02/2010 12:49:58 AM 1229 Views
Depends on how you view SF, I suppose Larry - 03/02/2010 04:20:56 AM 1105 Views
I thought that was what we were mulling over Tom - 03/02/2010 04:38:35 AM 1227 Views
True Larry - 03/02/2010 05:11:19 AM 1162 Views
Nice tie-in! Tom - 03/02/2010 01:55:33 PM 1213 Views
Larry - 05/02/2010 06:06:23 AM 1298 Views
Your unscientific anecdotal evidence sounds very odd to me. Legolas - 28/01/2010 12:15:10 AM 1299 Views
It might. I'm not purporting to speak for all of humanity (at least on this point). Tom - 28/01/2010 09:43:40 PM 1350 Views
The approve of this message. The Shrike - 26/01/2010 03:34:49 AM 1332 Views
So, what you're saying is that watching the 2002 movie was sufficient? Good! *NM* everynametaken - 26/01/2010 06:34:53 AM 642 Views
I'm not through it quite yet, but I do have a question nossy - 26/01/2010 12:24:14 PM 1238 Views
Wait...you VOTED for this book? Tom - 26/01/2010 01:41:00 PM 1308 Views
I honestly can't remember. nossy - 26/01/2010 01:55:39 PM 1264 Views
Doctor Zhivago is one of the best novels ever written. Tom - 26/01/2010 02:12:35 PM 1275 Views
Right, so now we all know that if we'd just listen to me more often, the world would be better. nossy - 26/01/2010 02:20:56 PM 1281 Views
The problem was that the suggestions were generally not that good. Tom - 26/01/2010 02:32:50 PM 1328 Views
Possession is not "purely a romance novel". Legolas - 26/01/2010 02:57:17 PM 1446 Views
Which basically proves my entire point. nossy - 26/01/2010 03:00:20 PM 1321 Views
Which is purely a romance novel? Rebekah - 26/01/2010 02:59:38 PM 1324 Views
Fair enough, it might be a bit tricky to discuss. *NM* Legolas - 26/01/2010 03:04:58 PM 656 Views
In your opinion nossy - 26/01/2010 03:07:12 PM 1328 Views
Exactly why I avoid suggesting modern books Tom - 26/01/2010 03:10:09 PM 1310 Views
You really are ignornant of what A.S. Byatt writes, aren't you? Larry - 27/01/2010 12:51:00 AM 1297 Views
Oh, I fucking hate epistolary novels. Thank you for warning me. Tom - 27/01/2010 02:00:34 AM 1204 Views
Ha! Larry - 27/01/2010 02:22:00 AM 1256 Views
Perhaps I would like it. I still hate epistolary novels. Tom - 27/01/2010 01:26:43 PM 1289 Views
Indeed. *NM* Rebekah - 26/01/2010 02:01:22 PM 598 Views
It's funny because I think it's a question of taste level. The Shrike - 26/01/2010 02:32:08 PM 1386 Views
Curious George is a tale of many layers, as told by Werner Herzog Tom - 26/01/2010 02:34:27 PM 1407 Views
I don't care if this validates your opinion of me. Tashmere - 29/01/2010 11:06:18 PM 1190 Views
On what basis? nossy - 26/01/2010 02:51:40 PM 1342 Views
It's a children's book. Get over it. Democracy failed. The Shrike - 26/01/2010 02:55:03 PM 1345 Views
Usually does, when those who know better keep silent. nossy - 26/01/2010 02:57:54 PM 1248 Views
I didn't keep silent, though. The Shrike - 26/01/2010 04:46:48 PM 1330 Views
You're ignoring what we've been discussing. nossy - 27/01/2010 11:11:44 AM 1296 Views
Regarding comfort zones Camilla - 26/01/2010 05:08:50 PM 1366 Views
Camilla, let's be honest here... Tom - 26/01/2010 05:40:08 PM 1354 Views
Re: Camilla, let's be honest here... Camilla - 26/01/2010 09:10:47 PM 1349 Views
If that's your goal, Camilla, you failed. Tom - 27/01/2010 01:35:52 PM 1410 Views
Possibly Camilla - 27/01/2010 01:38:39 PM 1277 Views
I have not been ranting and raving. I've been highly critical of the book, with much justification. Tom - 27/01/2010 01:45:05 PM 1277 Views
Re: I've been highly critical of the book, with much justification. Camilla - 27/01/2010 01:53:28 PM 1266 Views
I was wondering how long it would take for you to blame me and Greg. Tom - 27/01/2010 02:26:12 PM 1399 Views
Don't you get it? We bring this place down. The Shrike - 27/01/2010 02:42:32 PM 1250 Views
Heh heh heh. Pink cardigan-wearing suburban cul-de-sac. I like it. *NM* Tom - 27/01/2010 03:11:25 PM 643 Views
Re: I was wondering how long it would take for you to blame me and Greg. Camilla - 27/01/2010 02:43:11 PM 1263 Views
While that was not the intent, that is an added bonus. The Shrike - 27/01/2010 02:48:47 PM 1258 Views
why is it a bonus? Camilla - 27/01/2010 02:52:58 PM 1229 Views
I said see above. You should have before the thought police, Rebekah, started to delete. The Shrike - 27/01/2010 02:59:07 PM 1511 Views
I did Camilla - 27/01/2010 04:40:25 PM 1296 Views
Well, you wouldn't grow tired of us calling a novel shit if you chose a novel that wasn't shit. Tom - 27/01/2010 03:11:57 PM 1249 Views
Re: Regarding comfort zones nossy - 27/01/2010 11:57:03 AM 1325 Views
Re: Regarding comfort zones Camilla - 27/01/2010 11:59:31 AM 1276 Views
Halfway nossy - 27/01/2010 12:07:14 PM 1271 Views
Re: Halfway Camilla - 27/01/2010 12:09:02 PM 1287 Views
Re: The book was very childish. Dar Valon - 30/01/2010 09:56:29 PM 1295 Views
I read it in French Larry - 30/01/2010 10:54:34 PM 1178 Views
So. I really liked it. Nebhead - 26/01/2010 08:57:02 AM 1393 Views
Yes, fearless leader, this is where I stand. Rebekah - 26/01/2010 11:04:23 PM 1270 Views
Re: Yes, fearless leader, this is where I stand. Camilla - 26/01/2010 11:49:03 PM 1311 Views
We were talking about this last night. nossy - 27/01/2010 11:14:21 AM 1391 Views
Re: We were talking about this last night. Camilla - 27/01/2010 11:37:04 AM 1391 Views
If you do that, I'm posting on the deeper meaning of Dan Brown. Tom - 27/01/2010 01:46:35 PM 1366 Views
Feel free to. Camilla - 27/01/2010 01:51:23 PM 1338 Views
Your post-modern take on the novel is shit, shit, shit. Tom - 27/01/2010 02:28:56 PM 1301 Views
Re: Your post-modern take on the novel is shit, shit, shit. Camilla - 27/01/2010 02:45:41 PM 1323 Views
I'm not setting up a straw man. I'm challenging your touchy-feely approach. Tom - 27/01/2010 03:15:00 PM 1206 Views
My touchy-feely approach? Camilla - 27/01/2010 05:09:04 PM 1227 Views
Yes...using passing references in the text to justify a deeper analysis. Tom - 27/01/2010 05:16:10 PM 1279 Views
Doesn't touchy-feely mean that it is steeped in or based on emotion? Camilla - 27/01/2010 06:40:31 PM 1250 Views
I think between the two of you I agree more with Tom here. Legolas - 27/01/2010 07:01:08 PM 1256 Views
You summed up my reasons for using "touchy-feely" quite well. Tom - 27/01/2010 07:27:45 PM 1241 Views
Glad to hear it. Legolas - 27/01/2010 07:39:20 PM 1130 Views
Re: I think between the two of you I agree more with Tom here. Camilla - 27/01/2010 08:29:32 PM 1309 Views
See my reply to Tom for clarification, then. Legolas - 27/01/2010 08:57:18 PM 1353 Views
Re: See my reply to Tom for clarification, then. Camilla - 27/01/2010 09:09:47 PM 1269 Views
Well, so what will it be? Tom - 27/01/2010 09:14:53 PM 1226 Views
Er. Whose position are you arguing - mine or yours? Legolas - 27/01/2010 10:33:01 PM 1152 Views
Mine. Which is more complicated than a simple rejection. That is what I am saying. Camilla - 01/02/2010 12:53:58 PM 1129 Views
Do it. I'd read that. nossy - 27/01/2010 01:55:23 PM 1390 Views
Re: Do it. I'd read that. Camilla - 27/01/2010 02:10:04 PM 1290 Views
Right then. nossy - 27/01/2010 02:15:04 PM 1259 Views
All righty, that's enough of that. For Tom, Greg, and... no, pretty much just you two. Nebhead - 27/01/2010 04:33:00 PM 1322 Views
I call bullshit. I have been conducting the debate in a measured fashion. Tom - 27/01/2010 04:50:35 PM 1277 Views
And ANOTHER THING Tom - 27/01/2010 05:05:17 PM 1189 Views
Not everyone has finished reading it yet *NM* Camilla - 27/01/2010 05:12:10 PM 704 Views
Okay, so you'll get one or two stragglers in a week to a month. It changes nothing. Tom - 27/01/2010 05:17:51 PM 1338 Views
Re: Okay, so you'll get one or two stragglers in a week to a month. It changes nothing. Camilla - 27/01/2010 06:41:11 PM 1298 Views
We are discussing this book. We're discussing its faults. Tom - 27/01/2010 07:30:49 PM 1220 Views
In the interest of discussing Dumas' intentions... Legolas - 27/01/2010 08:03:24 PM 1391 Views
It was mildly interesting. Tom - 27/01/2010 09:04:03 PM 1344 Views
I think you're misreading that... Legolas - 27/01/2010 10:18:11 PM 1360 Views
Re: We are discussing this book. We're discussing its faults. Camilla - 27/01/2010 08:30:19 PM 1361 Views
The text doesn't warrant "close attention" any more than Dan Brown's works do. Tom - 27/01/2010 09:10:45 PM 1228 Views
fine. *NM* Camilla - 27/01/2010 09:12:44 PM 642 Views
Also, do you think a good book would have generated this level of discussion? Of course not. Tom - 27/01/2010 05:21:45 PM 1265 Views
What discussion? Camilla - 27/01/2010 06:42:32 PM 1293 Views
I said that we couldn't discuss the book on its own terms. Tom - 27/01/2010 07:35:32 PM 1378 Views
Which I still think we can. Camilla - 27/01/2010 08:35:35 PM 1258 Views
Perhaps you shouldn't be breaking things down at all. Tom - 27/01/2010 09:06:59 PM 1367 Views
Re: Perhaps you shouldn't be breaking things down at all. Camilla - 27/01/2010 09:12:22 PM 1311 Views
You have yet to show any utility for breaking things down. Tom - 27/01/2010 09:19:29 PM 1376 Views
I haven't tried to show any "utility" for it. Camilla - 01/02/2010 01:06:35 PM 1221 Views
I apologize if I'm part of the reason you feel ganged up on. Legolas - 27/01/2010 10:40:36 PM 1278 Views
Re: I apologize if I'm part of the reason you feel ganged up on. Camilla - 01/02/2010 12:56:03 PM 1199 Views
Deary me. Nebhead - 27/01/2010 05:19:58 PM 1469 Views
By "respect" do you mean that you want me to drop my debates? Tom - 27/01/2010 05:24:03 PM 1222 Views
Not at all. Nebhead - 27/01/2010 05:35:34 PM 1404 Views
Okay, I'm cool with that. Tom - 27/01/2010 05:44:54 PM 1374 Views
Thank you. Nebhead - 27/01/2010 05:48:05 PM 1791 Views
Please ban me, then. The Shrike - 27/01/2010 06:44:55 PM 1238 Views
I'm sorry as well - if I had any kind of willpower, it wouldn't have gotten that far. nossy - 27/01/2010 06:29:43 PM 1304 Views
Nods Roland00 - 18/02/2010 05:06:44 PM 1719 Views
Oh man, I love this thread. *NM* Ghavrel - 28/01/2010 01:17:58 AM 628 Views
On the nature of the "Book Club" Jacob - 28/01/2010 09:23:23 PM 1138 Views
Any chance of seeing some shorter suggestions? Wibble - 28/01/2010 10:20:59 PM 1362 Views
Yes, shorter would be good. Rebekah - 28/01/2010 10:23:28 PM 1214 Views
Oh i'm not complaining Wibble - 28/01/2010 10:33:48 PM 1217 Views
Sure sounded like it. Rebekah - 28/01/2010 10:38:27 PM 1278 Views
No for reals, shorter is good. Darth_Katie - 29/01/2010 01:08:26 AM 1252 Views
Absolutely. Jacob - 29/01/2010 03:33:15 AM 1190 Views
Agreed snoopcester - 29/01/2010 11:26:34 AM 1282 Views
Well, you should have known better! Larry - 29/01/2010 01:29:40 AM 1254 Views
I do. Jacob - 29/01/2010 08:31:30 PM 1239 Views
Thought you did Larry - 29/01/2010 08:38:39 PM 1223 Views
Jacob - 29/01/2010 08:51:42 PM 1260 Views
All I can say is The Master and Margarita better be one by March. WE WAS ROBBED. *NM* Ghavrel - 29/01/2010 02:31:48 AM 609 Views
That is the other one that I am considering. *NM* Jacob - 29/01/2010 03:32:02 AM 625 Views
I'll re-read Zhivago or Master if either is chosen Tom - 29/01/2010 05:26:02 AM 1210 Views
Talk to me Ghavrel. Tashmere - 30/01/2010 12:09:24 AM 1160 Views
Well, I haven't finished it yet. Ghavrel - 30/01/2010 02:21:08 AM 1218 Views
Re: On the nature of the "Book Club" nossy - 29/01/2010 12:33:03 PM 1214 Views
I didn't read it for the Book Club AgentOrange - 29/01/2010 12:40:22 AM 1226 Views
Well I'm late to the party John - 29/01/2010 06:21:18 AM 1193 Views
No, you're early Camilla - 01/02/2010 01:26:10 PM 1097 Views
I still have yet to see that discussion, Camilla. *NM* Tom - 03/02/2010 12:46:24 AM 669 Views
A few comments John - 04/02/2010 06:39:18 AM 1540 Views
If I kept you from participating, that's your fault. Tom - 04/02/2010 01:01:46 PM 1179 Views
Interesting way of dismissing what has already been discussed about the book Larry - 03/02/2010 04:22:26 AM 1356 Views
Nah, there's been discussion, here and there inbetween the fighting. *NM* Legolas - 03/02/2010 04:39:24 PM 612 Views
An interesting quote from the book - does it jibe with your experience? Tashmere - 29/01/2010 11:23:54 PM 1269 Views
Sure. Jacob - 01/02/2010 03:23:59 PM 1233 Views
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