Active Users:1251 Time:23/11/2024 06:56:18 AM
Re: Which is precisely part of what makes the book interesting Camilla Send a noteboard - 27/01/2010 04:47:37 PM
It refuses to provide the satisfaction, which makes us aware of that expectation perhaps more than if it had provided it. Certainly that is the case for me. If it had provided perfect closure, I would have closed it and moved on. I think the reason why I keep returning to it is because I am never allowed to feel that.

The book, for me, can be defined only by what it lacks. Where are the real people (as opposed to ersatz characters)? Where is the question about the propriety of revenge? Where is the issue of Dantes' hubris? The closest we get to it is his half-hearted sorrow over little Edward de Villefort's poisoning, which is almost an afterthought. And look at how poorly Dantes treats Faria - he doesn't take Faria's writings about a unified, independent Italy for publication or even seem to care about Faria's goals and dreams. He just uses Faria's information and Faria's tunnel for his own gain. Yet there is no reflection on that.

I agree that the characters are not what they should be in this book. It is one of my main problems with it.

The question about the propriety of revenge, though? It permeates the book. As Jen noted, the scene of the execution is quite interesting in that respect in that it provides a counterpoint in the official (rather cruel) form of justice. As I see it, there are three voices in the discussion within the book, neither one of which is really dominant:

The first is that vengeance is right -- this is the Count's position. It provides the main tone, the force of the story &c. All the while, though, it is tempered by the Christian mores of the society that surrounds the Count, and also in the voice of Faria, which labels Vegeance as wrong and tells you to forgive your enemies. This is what is taken up in the end when it is made explicit in the Count's doubts. And the third voice then ties this dialogue of the other two to the justice of the state, centred on the execution scene. All the while this is surrounded by variations on the theme -- the Corsicans, Bertuccio, Benedetto...

Regarding Faria's book, I think you will find he did take it with him when he visited the prison at the end. He could not have taken it when escaping, as it would have been ruined by the water.


I think it is also of some importance as a symbol - when leaves the prison he has one purpose, righting what he sees as injustice (that the state has missed or approved) with everything he encounters along the way designed to further that end. By the end of the book he has both had his revenge and also is no longer consumed by it, in fact he is starting to question his actions. By taking the book at this point it works to symbolise that he changed from revenge being his only reason for living to a more Fariaesque philosophy and will actually live in the world.


I hadn't thought of that, but it makes sense.
*MySmiley*
structured procrastinator
Reply to message
The Count of Monte Cristo by Alexandre Dumas - Book Club now open! - 25/01/2010 10:54:37 PM 2445 Views
Le plot. - 25/01/2010 10:55:26 PM 1211 Views
Plot: demarcation, plan, complot... - 26/01/2010 11:48:19 PM 1342 Views
Les characters. - 25/01/2010 10:56:23 PM 1298 Views
The good, the bad and the ugly. - 26/01/2010 10:54:38 AM 1317 Views
Hmm. - 27/01/2010 03:58:31 PM 1235 Views
Re: Hmm. - 27/01/2010 04:59:12 PM 1303 Views
Re: Hmm. - 28/01/2010 01:40:34 PM 1247 Views
Re: Hmm. - 01/02/2010 12:49:06 PM 1456 Views
Why does the book have enduring appeal? - 25/01/2010 10:57:37 PM 1282 Views
Or rather, does this book share any traits in common with pornography? - 25/01/2010 11:14:01 PM 1410 Views
I think the revenge plot is actually fairly weak. - 26/01/2010 03:43:04 AM 1316 Views
Re: I think the revenge plot is actually fairly weak. - 26/01/2010 11:12:19 AM 1366 Views
In that case, the "release" is quite unsatisfying. - 27/01/2010 01:42:28 PM 1476 Views
Which is precisely part of what makes the book interesting - 27/01/2010 02:06:58 PM 1363 Views
Oh, and your point on revenge - that's just reading too much into the text. - 27/01/2010 02:16:05 PM 1194 Views
There is no such thing - 27/01/2010 02:18:46 PM 1248 Views
I fundamentally disagree with your post-modern take on the novel. - 27/01/2010 02:25:25 PM 1300 Views
It isn't a postmodern take on it - 27/01/2010 02:41:32 PM 1269 Views
Re: Which is precisely part of what makes the book interesting - 27/01/2010 03:40:36 PM 1244 Views
Maybe it's of the same importance as the Lost Symbol. - 27/01/2010 03:44:55 PM 1308 Views
If I ddin't know better, I might think you a trifle petulant - 27/01/2010 04:19:57 PM 1368 Views
I'm never petulant - 27/01/2010 04:55:56 PM 1240 Views
Re: Which is precisely part of what makes the book interesting - 27/01/2010 04:47:37 PM 1339 Views
I think one important question to ask is... - 26/01/2010 12:00:17 AM 1352 Views
I have read the abridged version a couple of times. I am reading the unabridged version this time. - 26/01/2010 03:25:50 AM 1294 Views
the potentially removable part... - 26/01/2010 11:24:16 AM 1357 Views
I have read both - 27/01/2010 01:37:00 AM 1376 Views
The abridged versus the unabridged - 28/01/2010 06:32:22 AM 1288 Views
Re: Why does the book have enduring appeal? - 27/01/2010 01:16:47 AM 1415 Views
Re: Why does the book have enduring appeal? - 30/01/2010 09:12:22 AM 1302 Views
Re: I got here too late, so I offer Umberto Eco's thoughts on the matter: - 22/02/2010 06:59:13 PM 1476 Views
I'm watching right back, Big Brother. *NM* - 25/01/2010 11:44:30 PM 660 Views
*NM* - 25/01/2010 11:45:27 PM 645 Views
The book was very childish. - 26/01/2010 03:05:01 AM 1413 Views
Granted, The Master and Margarita is also very much a fantasy book. *NM* - 26/01/2010 03:07:45 AM 679 Views
No, it really isn't. - 26/01/2010 03:10:08 AM 1361 Views
You know, this is a problem. - 26/01/2010 03:43:14 AM 1332 Views
There's really nothing I can say to this that Greg didn't just say above. - 26/01/2010 06:32:02 AM 1400 Views
People tend to forget one thing about Tolkien - 26/01/2010 01:36:06 PM 1328 Views
Re: No, it really isn't. - 26/01/2010 10:57:19 AM 1263 Views
I'll admit the only Lem I've read is Solaris... - 26/01/2010 01:52:02 PM 1349 Views
Read His Master's Voice - 26/01/2010 04:52:31 PM 1266 Views
You make some rather odd claims here, Tom - 27/01/2010 12:43:41 AM 1351 Views
You place undue importance on academic degrees. - 27/01/2010 01:19:40 AM 1341 Views
You misread totally what I said, I see... - 27/01/2010 01:52:59 AM 1268 Views
My claims are far from odd. In fact, they're quite common. - 27/01/2010 01:57:41 AM 1322 Views
In some circles; in others, they're rather antiquated nowadays - 27/01/2010 02:21:03 AM 1257 Views
If you were trying to write literature, wouldn't the label sting for you? - 27/01/2010 01:25:14 PM 1312 Views
I think it's easier to think of stories fitting into genre(s) than to think the same of authors - 27/01/2010 02:40:29 PM 1374 Views
Allow me to clarify: I'm talking about authors' reactions to their books being so labelled. - 27/01/2010 03:08:47 PM 1418 Views
But yet their reactions vary widely - 27/01/2010 11:33:25 PM 1294 Views
My fundamental premise is that genre has the most utility when applied to derivative fiction. - 28/01/2010 09:39:17 PM 1285 Views
And yet that term is mostly used as a non-loaded term that doesn't attempt to ascribe quality levels - 29/01/2010 02:49:20 AM 1195 Views
I like my definition of science fiction better than the one you quoted. - 29/01/2010 05:16:36 AM 1254 Views
I think estrangement is a key element, though - 30/01/2010 11:00:19 PM 1225 Views
I don't think estrangement is a necessary element. - 30/01/2010 11:47:07 PM 1432 Views
I mean it as a literary effect, that of creating a distance between text and reader - 31/01/2010 12:03:34 AM 1232 Views
Even if that's the meaning, I still disagree. - 03/02/2010 12:49:58 AM 1230 Views
Depends on how you view SF, I suppose - 03/02/2010 04:20:56 AM 1106 Views
I thought that was what we were mulling over - 03/02/2010 04:38:35 AM 1227 Views
True - 03/02/2010 05:11:19 AM 1162 Views
Nice tie-in! - 03/02/2010 01:55:33 PM 1214 Views
- 05/02/2010 06:06:23 AM 1298 Views
The approve of this message. - 26/01/2010 03:34:49 AM 1332 Views
I'm not through it quite yet, but I do have a question - 26/01/2010 12:24:14 PM 1238 Views
Wait...you VOTED for this book? - 26/01/2010 01:41:00 PM 1310 Views
I honestly can't remember. - 26/01/2010 01:55:39 PM 1266 Views
Doctor Zhivago is one of the best novels ever written. - 26/01/2010 02:12:35 PM 1276 Views
Right, so now we all know that if we'd just listen to me more often, the world would be better. - 26/01/2010 02:20:56 PM 1281 Views
The problem was that the suggestions were generally not that good. - 26/01/2010 02:32:50 PM 1328 Views
Possession is not "purely a romance novel". - 26/01/2010 02:57:17 PM 1446 Views
Which basically proves my entire point. - 26/01/2010 03:00:20 PM 1321 Views
Which is purely a romance novel? - 26/01/2010 02:59:38 PM 1324 Views
Fair enough, it might be a bit tricky to discuss. *NM* - 26/01/2010 03:04:58 PM 656 Views
In your opinion - 26/01/2010 03:07:12 PM 1328 Views
Exactly why I avoid suggesting modern books - 26/01/2010 03:10:09 PM 1310 Views
You really are ignornant of what A.S. Byatt writes, aren't you? - 27/01/2010 12:51:00 AM 1297 Views
Oh, I fucking hate epistolary novels. Thank you for warning me. - 27/01/2010 02:00:34 AM 1204 Views
Ha! - 27/01/2010 02:22:00 AM 1256 Views
Perhaps I would like it. I still hate epistolary novels. - 27/01/2010 01:26:43 PM 1289 Views
Indeed. *NM* - 26/01/2010 02:01:22 PM 598 Views
It's funny because I think it's a question of taste level. - 26/01/2010 02:32:08 PM 1387 Views
Curious George is a tale of many layers, as told by Werner Herzog - 26/01/2010 02:34:27 PM 1408 Views
I don't care if this validates your opinion of me. - 29/01/2010 11:06:18 PM 1190 Views
On what basis? - 26/01/2010 02:51:40 PM 1342 Views
It's a children's book. Get over it. Democracy failed. - 26/01/2010 02:55:03 PM 1345 Views
Usually does, when those who know better keep silent. - 26/01/2010 02:57:54 PM 1249 Views
I didn't keep silent, though. - 26/01/2010 04:46:48 PM 1330 Views
You're ignoring what we've been discussing. - 27/01/2010 11:11:44 AM 1296 Views
Regarding comfort zones - 26/01/2010 05:08:50 PM 1366 Views
Camilla, let's be honest here... - 26/01/2010 05:40:08 PM 1354 Views
Re: Camilla, let's be honest here... - 26/01/2010 09:10:47 PM 1350 Views
If that's your goal, Camilla, you failed. - 27/01/2010 01:35:52 PM 1410 Views
Possibly - 27/01/2010 01:38:39 PM 1277 Views
I have not been ranting and raving. I've been highly critical of the book, with much justification. - 27/01/2010 01:45:05 PM 1278 Views
Re: I've been highly critical of the book, with much justification. - 27/01/2010 01:53:28 PM 1267 Views
I was wondering how long it would take for you to blame me and Greg. - 27/01/2010 02:26:12 PM 1400 Views
Don't you get it? We bring this place down. - 27/01/2010 02:42:32 PM 1250 Views
Re: I was wondering how long it would take for you to blame me and Greg. - 27/01/2010 02:43:11 PM 1263 Views
While that was not the intent, that is an added bonus. - 27/01/2010 02:48:47 PM 1258 Views
why is it a bonus? - 27/01/2010 02:52:58 PM 1229 Views
I said see above. You should have before the thought police, Rebekah, started to delete. - 27/01/2010 02:59:07 PM 1511 Views
I did - 27/01/2010 04:40:25 PM 1297 Views
Re: Regarding comfort zones - 27/01/2010 11:57:03 AM 1325 Views
Re: Regarding comfort zones - 27/01/2010 11:59:31 AM 1277 Views
Halfway - 27/01/2010 12:07:14 PM 1271 Views
Re: Halfway - 27/01/2010 12:09:02 PM 1287 Views
Re: The book was very childish. - 30/01/2010 09:56:29 PM 1295 Views
I read it in French - 30/01/2010 10:54:34 PM 1178 Views
So. I really liked it. - 26/01/2010 08:57:02 AM 1393 Views
Yes, fearless leader, this is where I stand. - 26/01/2010 11:04:23 PM 1270 Views
Re: Yes, fearless leader, this is where I stand. - 26/01/2010 11:49:03 PM 1311 Views
We were talking about this last night. - 27/01/2010 11:14:21 AM 1391 Views
Re: We were talking about this last night. - 27/01/2010 11:37:04 AM 1392 Views
If you do that, I'm posting on the deeper meaning of Dan Brown. - 27/01/2010 01:46:35 PM 1366 Views
Feel free to. - 27/01/2010 01:51:23 PM 1338 Views
Your post-modern take on the novel is shit, shit, shit. - 27/01/2010 02:28:56 PM 1301 Views
Re: Your post-modern take on the novel is shit, shit, shit. - 27/01/2010 02:45:41 PM 1324 Views
I'm not setting up a straw man. I'm challenging your touchy-feely approach. - 27/01/2010 03:15:00 PM 1207 Views
My touchy-feely approach? - 27/01/2010 05:09:04 PM 1227 Views
Yes...using passing references in the text to justify a deeper analysis. - 27/01/2010 05:16:10 PM 1279 Views
Doesn't touchy-feely mean that it is steeped in or based on emotion? - 27/01/2010 06:40:31 PM 1250 Views
I think between the two of you I agree more with Tom here. - 27/01/2010 07:01:08 PM 1256 Views
You summed up my reasons for using "touchy-feely" quite well. - 27/01/2010 07:27:45 PM 1241 Views
Glad to hear it. - 27/01/2010 07:39:20 PM 1130 Views
Re: I think between the two of you I agree more with Tom here. - 27/01/2010 08:29:32 PM 1309 Views
See my reply to Tom for clarification, then. - 27/01/2010 08:57:18 PM 1353 Views
Re: See my reply to Tom for clarification, then. - 27/01/2010 09:09:47 PM 1269 Views
Well, so what will it be? - 27/01/2010 09:14:53 PM 1226 Views
Er. Whose position are you arguing - mine or yours? - 27/01/2010 10:33:01 PM 1152 Views
Do it. I'd read that. - 27/01/2010 01:55:23 PM 1391 Views
Re: Do it. I'd read that. - 27/01/2010 02:10:04 PM 1290 Views
Right then. - 27/01/2010 02:15:04 PM 1260 Views
All righty, that's enough of that. For Tom, Greg, and... no, pretty much just you two. - 27/01/2010 04:33:00 PM 1323 Views
And ANOTHER THING - 27/01/2010 05:05:17 PM 1190 Views
Not everyone has finished reading it yet *NM* - 27/01/2010 05:12:10 PM 704 Views
Okay, so you'll get one or two stragglers in a week to a month. It changes nothing. - 27/01/2010 05:17:51 PM 1339 Views
Re: Okay, so you'll get one or two stragglers in a week to a month. It changes nothing. - 27/01/2010 06:41:11 PM 1299 Views
We are discussing this book. We're discussing its faults. - 27/01/2010 07:30:49 PM 1221 Views
In the interest of discussing Dumas' intentions... - 27/01/2010 08:03:24 PM 1392 Views
It was mildly interesting. - 27/01/2010 09:04:03 PM 1344 Views
I think you're misreading that... - 27/01/2010 10:18:11 PM 1360 Views
Re: We are discussing this book. We're discussing its faults. - 27/01/2010 08:30:19 PM 1361 Views
The text doesn't warrant "close attention" any more than Dan Brown's works do. - 27/01/2010 09:10:45 PM 1229 Views
fine. *NM* - 27/01/2010 09:12:44 PM 642 Views
Also, do you think a good book would have generated this level of discussion? Of course not. - 27/01/2010 05:21:45 PM 1265 Views
What discussion? - 27/01/2010 06:42:32 PM 1293 Views
I said that we couldn't discuss the book on its own terms. - 27/01/2010 07:35:32 PM 1378 Views
Which I still think we can. - 27/01/2010 08:35:35 PM 1258 Views
Perhaps you shouldn't be breaking things down at all. - 27/01/2010 09:06:59 PM 1368 Views
Re: Perhaps you shouldn't be breaking things down at all. - 27/01/2010 09:12:22 PM 1312 Views
You have yet to show any utility for breaking things down. - 27/01/2010 09:19:29 PM 1376 Views
I haven't tried to show any "utility" for it. - 01/02/2010 01:06:35 PM 1221 Views
I apologize if I'm part of the reason you feel ganged up on. - 27/01/2010 10:40:36 PM 1279 Views
Re: I apologize if I'm part of the reason you feel ganged up on. - 01/02/2010 12:56:03 PM 1199 Views
Deary me. - 27/01/2010 05:19:58 PM 1470 Views
By "respect" do you mean that you want me to drop my debates? - 27/01/2010 05:24:03 PM 1222 Views
Not at all. - 27/01/2010 05:35:34 PM 1404 Views
Okay, I'm cool with that. - 27/01/2010 05:44:54 PM 1374 Views
Thank you. - 27/01/2010 05:48:05 PM 1792 Views
Please ban me, then. - 27/01/2010 06:44:55 PM 1239 Views
Nods - 18/02/2010 05:06:44 PM 1719 Views
Oh man, I love this thread. *NM* - 28/01/2010 01:17:58 AM 628 Views
On the nature of the "Book Club" - 28/01/2010 09:23:23 PM 1139 Views
Any chance of seeing some shorter suggestions? - 28/01/2010 10:20:59 PM 1362 Views
Yes, shorter would be good. - 28/01/2010 10:23:28 PM 1214 Views
Oh i'm not complaining - 28/01/2010 10:33:48 PM 1217 Views
Sure sounded like it. - 28/01/2010 10:38:27 PM 1278 Views
No for reals, shorter is good. - 29/01/2010 01:08:26 AM 1252 Views
Absolutely. - 29/01/2010 03:33:15 AM 1190 Views
Agreed - 29/01/2010 11:26:34 AM 1282 Views
Well, you should have known better! - 29/01/2010 01:29:40 AM 1254 Views
I do. - 29/01/2010 08:31:30 PM 1239 Views
Thought you did - 29/01/2010 08:38:39 PM 1224 Views
- 29/01/2010 08:51:42 PM 1260 Views
All I can say is The Master and Margarita better be one by March. WE WAS ROBBED. *NM* - 29/01/2010 02:31:48 AM 609 Views
That is the other one that I am considering. *NM* - 29/01/2010 03:32:02 AM 625 Views
I'll re-read Zhivago or Master if either is chosen - 29/01/2010 05:26:02 AM 1210 Views
Talk to me Ghavrel. - 30/01/2010 12:09:24 AM 1160 Views
Well, I haven't finished it yet. - 30/01/2010 02:21:08 AM 1220 Views
Re: On the nature of the "Book Club" - 29/01/2010 12:33:03 PM 1215 Views
I didn't read it for the Book Club - 29/01/2010 12:40:22 AM 1227 Views
Well I'm late to the party - 29/01/2010 06:21:18 AM 1193 Views
No, you're early - 01/02/2010 01:26:10 PM 1097 Views
I still have yet to see that discussion, Camilla. *NM* - 03/02/2010 12:46:24 AM 669 Views
A few comments - 04/02/2010 06:39:18 AM 1540 Views
If I kept you from participating, that's your fault. - 04/02/2010 01:01:46 PM 1179 Views
An interesting quote from the book - does it jibe with your experience? - 29/01/2010 11:23:54 PM 1269 Views
Sure. - 01/02/2010 03:23:59 PM 1233 Views

Reply to Message