Or rather, does this book share any traits in common with pornography?
Larry Send a noteboard - 25/01/2010 11:14:01 PM
This is crossposted from a review I did recently for a review challenge of reviewing pre-1960 fictions:
In this quote from a recent French edition of 19th century French author Alexandre Dumas' 1844 novel, Le Comte de Monte-Cristo, Umberto Eco (in French translation, since he originally wrote it in Italian for another publication) lays bare a problem that several readers in the early 21st century might have with parsing 19th century novels. Eco notes that this novel is "a great novel badly written." It is full of repetitive motifs, the adjectives are piled on thicker than gravy on a country steak, there are digressions after digressions, and if twenty words could suffice instead of merely one, Dumas would utilize those twenty words...and likely a few others. In short, the list of faults that can be found with one of Dumas' two most famous novels are numerous and if committed today, the author would likely receive the same sort of scorn reserved for the likes of Dan Brown or Terry Goodkind for their stylistically maladroit prose and their cardboard-thick, rough characterizations. Yet The Count of Monte Cristo is one of the more well-known and beloved novels that date from the mid-19th century? How is it that a novel so full of technical errors and plot devices that would irritate so many "modern" readers today be so popular?
I have read this story in three distinct phases. I first read it the summer before my senior year of high school, as part of my required summer reading list for honors English. That time, I read it in the abridged Bantam Classics edition. About six years later, during the summer of 1997, when I had little to do except work on my MA independent studies, I found an unabridged edition and read it then. Finally, I acquired a two-volume paperback edition in French and read it over the past three weeks. During each of those reads, my relationship with the novel changed.
I recall being engrossed with the novel back in the summer of 1991. I found the melodramatic parts (the escape from the dreaded Chateau d'If, Haydèe's denouncement of Morcerf) to be thrilling. Edmond/the Count's revenge just seemed so cold, so calculated, so designed to catch my teenage self's attention. The ending was particularly well-done, I recall thinking back then. But by the time that I read it in its full form in the summer of 1997, my opinion had shifted. Dumas seemed to take forever to get to a point (should note here that I had read virtually all of Dickens' work around the same time and was beginning to grow weary of mid-19th century serial narratives) and instead of Edmond's revenge being an engrossing matter, the entire matter had become so tedious, as dozens of chapters on the Count's various personae being developed and employed served to weaken the impact of the narrative. While I can imagine contemporary audiences, reading perhaps 25-50 pages per installment over the 1844-1846 period that the novel was serialized, might have found this elaborate setup to balance well between expository advancement and anticipatory foreshadowing, it would appear that for several readers who do not care for several of the tropes of these 19th century serials, The Count of Monte Cristo would serve as an exemplary model of how not to construct a novel.
When I read it in French a few weeks ago, my earlier sense of tedium returned even more. Seeing that the redundant dialogues and laborious character interactions were not the fault of the translator but instead that of Dumas, I began to question why this work ever managed to maintain its appeal through time, cultures, and languages. Then a thought occurred to me. Eco, in his essay on this novel, goes on to note that despite or perhaps even because of its numerous faults, The Count of Monte Cristo is so popular today because its plot, the exquisite revenge of the betrayed upon his betrayers, has an appeal that transcends the very text of the novel. For readers wanting to read a tale of revenge, The Count of Monte Cristo is akin to pornography for them. Taking Eco's definition of pornography, as found in his collection of essays, How to Travel with a Salmon, as being the detailing of all activity, no matter how tedious or mind-numbing that it might be, in order to create a simulacrum of time transpiring before the payoff, The Count of Monte Cristo would certainly qualify as such. The reader is witness to the entire unfolding of Edmond's revenge, from his escape and discovery of who had betrayed him, down to the final encounter in the catacombs outside Rome.
Here, the repetitive scenes, the piling upon of adjective after adjective, bon mot after bon mot, have served to create such a ponderous approximation of real-life (in a fashion similar to modern-day soap operas and their years-spanning plot lines) that the reader is ready to see the literary money shot. They may by now be able to guess at the main thrust of the dialogue in a fashion similar to how a midnight audience will "participate" in a screening of The Rocky Horror Picture Show, they may groan at the melodramatic speech, but in most cases, after a thousand-plus pages of buildup, the reader will have something invested in this story, something that transcends how the written story is constructed and which seems to touch upon oft-suppressed primal emotions. It is this emotional connection, which occurs largely outside the confines of the story/text, that appears to be the main reason why The Count of Monte Cristo has been a perennial favorite for over 160 years. It certainly is not because of the scintillating prose, sparkling dialogue, or adroit characterizations. If it weren't for the universal appeal of a revenge plot outlined in near-pornographic detail, it is hard to imagine this novel having a higher reputation than Bulwer-Lytton's have enjoyed in the past two generations.
Umberto Eco a raison de le dire, Le Comte de Monte-Cristo est un grand roman mal écrit: "Monte-Cristo part en tous sens. Débordant de redondances, répétant éhontément un adjectif à une ligne d'écart, accumulant avec incontinence ces mêmes adjectifs, ouvrant de sententieuses digressions sans réussir à les fermer car la syntaxe ne suit pas, avançant ainsi en haletant par périodes de vingt lignes, le roman est mécanique et gauche dans la description des sentiments."
In this quote from a recent French edition of 19th century French author Alexandre Dumas' 1844 novel, Le Comte de Monte-Cristo, Umberto Eco (in French translation, since he originally wrote it in Italian for another publication) lays bare a problem that several readers in the early 21st century might have with parsing 19th century novels. Eco notes that this novel is "a great novel badly written." It is full of repetitive motifs, the adjectives are piled on thicker than gravy on a country steak, there are digressions after digressions, and if twenty words could suffice instead of merely one, Dumas would utilize those twenty words...and likely a few others. In short, the list of faults that can be found with one of Dumas' two most famous novels are numerous and if committed today, the author would likely receive the same sort of scorn reserved for the likes of Dan Brown or Terry Goodkind for their stylistically maladroit prose and their cardboard-thick, rough characterizations. Yet The Count of Monte Cristo is one of the more well-known and beloved novels that date from the mid-19th century? How is it that a novel so full of technical errors and plot devices that would irritate so many "modern" readers today be so popular?
I have read this story in three distinct phases. I first read it the summer before my senior year of high school, as part of my required summer reading list for honors English. That time, I read it in the abridged Bantam Classics edition. About six years later, during the summer of 1997, when I had little to do except work on my MA independent studies, I found an unabridged edition and read it then. Finally, I acquired a two-volume paperback edition in French and read it over the past three weeks. During each of those reads, my relationship with the novel changed.
I recall being engrossed with the novel back in the summer of 1991. I found the melodramatic parts (the escape from the dreaded Chateau d'If, Haydèe's denouncement of Morcerf) to be thrilling. Edmond/the Count's revenge just seemed so cold, so calculated, so designed to catch my teenage self's attention. The ending was particularly well-done, I recall thinking back then. But by the time that I read it in its full form in the summer of 1997, my opinion had shifted. Dumas seemed to take forever to get to a point (should note here that I had read virtually all of Dickens' work around the same time and was beginning to grow weary of mid-19th century serial narratives) and instead of Edmond's revenge being an engrossing matter, the entire matter had become so tedious, as dozens of chapters on the Count's various personae being developed and employed served to weaken the impact of the narrative. While I can imagine contemporary audiences, reading perhaps 25-50 pages per installment over the 1844-1846 period that the novel was serialized, might have found this elaborate setup to balance well between expository advancement and anticipatory foreshadowing, it would appear that for several readers who do not care for several of the tropes of these 19th century serials, The Count of Monte Cristo would serve as an exemplary model of how not to construct a novel.
When I read it in French a few weeks ago, my earlier sense of tedium returned even more. Seeing that the redundant dialogues and laborious character interactions were not the fault of the translator but instead that of Dumas, I began to question why this work ever managed to maintain its appeal through time, cultures, and languages. Then a thought occurred to me. Eco, in his essay on this novel, goes on to note that despite or perhaps even because of its numerous faults, The Count of Monte Cristo is so popular today because its plot, the exquisite revenge of the betrayed upon his betrayers, has an appeal that transcends the very text of the novel. For readers wanting to read a tale of revenge, The Count of Monte Cristo is akin to pornography for them. Taking Eco's definition of pornography, as found in his collection of essays, How to Travel with a Salmon, as being the detailing of all activity, no matter how tedious or mind-numbing that it might be, in order to create a simulacrum of time transpiring before the payoff, The Count of Monte Cristo would certainly qualify as such. The reader is witness to the entire unfolding of Edmond's revenge, from his escape and discovery of who had betrayed him, down to the final encounter in the catacombs outside Rome.
Here, the repetitive scenes, the piling upon of adjective after adjective, bon mot after bon mot, have served to create such a ponderous approximation of real-life (in a fashion similar to modern-day soap operas and their years-spanning plot lines) that the reader is ready to see the literary money shot. They may by now be able to guess at the main thrust of the dialogue in a fashion similar to how a midnight audience will "participate" in a screening of The Rocky Horror Picture Show, they may groan at the melodramatic speech, but in most cases, after a thousand-plus pages of buildup, the reader will have something invested in this story, something that transcends how the written story is constructed and which seems to touch upon oft-suppressed primal emotions. It is this emotional connection, which occurs largely outside the confines of the story/text, that appears to be the main reason why The Count of Monte Cristo has been a perennial favorite for over 160 years. It certainly is not because of the scintillating prose, sparkling dialogue, or adroit characterizations. If it weren't for the universal appeal of a revenge plot outlined in near-pornographic detail, it is hard to imagine this novel having a higher reputation than Bulwer-Lytton's have enjoyed in the past two generations.
Illusions fall like the husk of a fruit, one after another, and the fruit is experience. - Narrator, Sylvie
Je suis méchant.
Je suis méchant.
The Count of Monte Cristo by Alexandre Dumas - Book Club now open!
25/01/2010 10:54:37 PM
- 2445 Views
Les characters.
25/01/2010 10:56:23 PM
- 1297 Views
Why does the book have enduring appeal?
25/01/2010 10:57:37 PM
- 1282 Views
Or rather, does this book share any traits in common with pornography?
25/01/2010 11:14:01 PM
- 1410 Views
I think the revenge plot is actually fairly weak.
26/01/2010 03:43:04 AM
- 1316 Views
Re: I think the revenge plot is actually fairly weak.
26/01/2010 11:12:19 AM
- 1366 Views
In that case, the "release" is quite unsatisfying.
27/01/2010 01:42:28 PM
- 1475 Views
Which is precisely part of what makes the book interesting
27/01/2010 02:06:58 PM
- 1362 Views
He would not have known the book would be ruined by water. He thought he was being buried.
27/01/2010 02:15:02 PM
- 1263 Views
Oh, and your point on revenge - that's just reading too much into the text.
27/01/2010 02:16:05 PM
- 1194 Views
There is no such thing
27/01/2010 02:18:46 PM
- 1248 Views
I fundamentally disagree with your post-modern take on the novel.
27/01/2010 02:25:25 PM
- 1300 Views
Re: Which is precisely part of what makes the book interesting
27/01/2010 03:40:36 PM
- 1244 Views
Maybe it's of the same importance as the Lost Symbol.
27/01/2010 03:44:55 PM
- 1308 Views
I think one important question to ask is...
26/01/2010 12:00:17 AM
- 1352 Views
I like it, but it is purely on the adventure story level, and I've read the unabridged version.
26/01/2010 12:03:01 AM
- 1201 Views
I'm fairly certain I read the unabridged version. It was 1500 pages. *NM*
26/01/2010 02:36:10 AM
- 683 Views
I have read the abridged version a couple of times. I am reading the unabridged version this time.
26/01/2010 03:25:50 AM
- 1294 Views
I have read both
27/01/2010 01:37:00 AM
- 1376 Views
I actually didn't mean the people here on the site so much as readers in general.
27/01/2010 01:44:46 AM
- 1358 Views
Re: I actually didn't mean the people here on the site so much as readers in general.
27/01/2010 01:48:11 AM
- 1297 Views
Re: I got here too late, so I offer Umberto Eco's thoughts on the matter:
22/02/2010 06:59:13 PM
- 1476 Views
The book was very childish.
26/01/2010 03:05:01 AM
- 1413 Views
Granted, The Master and Margarita is also very much a fantasy book. *NM*
26/01/2010 03:07:45 AM
- 679 Views
No, it really isn't.
26/01/2010 03:10:08 AM
- 1360 Views
You know, this is a problem.
26/01/2010 03:43:14 AM
- 1332 Views
Thank God, I've never even heard of "Skol". Popov, yes, but Skol?
26/01/2010 03:49:08 AM
- 1337 Views
I've not tried it, but every time I go into liquor stores, it sits on the bottom shelf.
26/01/2010 03:57:03 AM
- 1234 Views
There's really nothing I can say to this that Greg didn't just say above.
26/01/2010 06:32:02 AM
- 1400 Views
Re: No, it really isn't.
26/01/2010 10:57:19 AM
- 1263 Views
Having Camilla concur with me on literary matters is very encouraging.
26/01/2010 01:37:23 PM
- 1334 Views
I do not agree with your complete dismissal of The Count of Monte Cristo, though
26/01/2010 04:58:58 PM
- 1289 Views
You make some rather odd claims here, Tom
27/01/2010 12:43:41 AM
- 1351 Views
My claims are far from odd. In fact, they're quite common.
27/01/2010 01:57:41 AM
- 1322 Views
In some circles; in others, they're rather antiquated nowadays
27/01/2010 02:21:03 AM
- 1256 Views
If you were trying to write literature, wouldn't the label sting for you?
27/01/2010 01:25:14 PM
- 1311 Views
I think it's easier to think of stories fitting into genre(s) than to think the same of authors
27/01/2010 02:40:29 PM
- 1374 Views
Allow me to clarify: I'm talking about authors' reactions to their books being so labelled.
27/01/2010 03:08:47 PM
- 1418 Views
But yet their reactions vary widely
27/01/2010 11:33:25 PM
- 1294 Views
My fundamental premise is that genre has the most utility when applied to derivative fiction.
28/01/2010 09:39:17 PM
- 1285 Views
And yet that term is mostly used as a non-loaded term that doesn't attempt to ascribe quality levels
29/01/2010 02:49:20 AM
- 1195 Views
I like my definition of science fiction better than the one you quoted.
29/01/2010 05:16:36 AM
- 1253 Views
I think estrangement is a key element, though
30/01/2010 11:00:19 PM
- 1225 Views
I don't think estrangement is a necessary element.
30/01/2010 11:47:07 PM
- 1431 Views
I mean it as a literary effect, that of creating a distance between text and reader
31/01/2010 12:03:34 AM
- 1232 Views
Even if that's the meaning, I still disagree.
03/02/2010 12:49:58 AM
- 1230 Views
Depends on how you view SF, I suppose
03/02/2010 04:20:56 AM
- 1105 Views
I thought that was what we were mulling over
03/02/2010 04:38:35 AM
- 1227 Views
Your unscientific anecdotal evidence sounds very odd to me.
28/01/2010 12:15:10 AM
- 1299 Views
It might. I'm not purporting to speak for all of humanity (at least on this point).
28/01/2010 09:43:40 PM
- 1350 Views
So, what you're saying is that watching the 2002 movie was sufficient? Good! *NM*
26/01/2010 06:34:53 AM
- 642 Views
I'm not through it quite yet, but I do have a question
26/01/2010 12:24:14 PM
- 1238 Views
Wait...you VOTED for this book?
26/01/2010 01:41:00 PM
- 1308 Views
I honestly can't remember.
26/01/2010 01:55:39 PM
- 1265 Views
Doctor Zhivago is one of the best novels ever written.
26/01/2010 02:12:35 PM
- 1275 Views
Right, so now we all know that if we'd just listen to me more often, the world would be better.
26/01/2010 02:20:56 PM
- 1281 Views
The problem was that the suggestions were generally not that good.
26/01/2010 02:32:50 PM
- 1328 Views
You really are ignornant of what A.S. Byatt writes, aren't you?
27/01/2010 12:51:00 AM
- 1297 Views
Oh, I fucking hate epistolary novels. Thank you for warning me.
27/01/2010 02:00:34 AM
- 1204 Views
It's funny because I think it's a question of taste level.
26/01/2010 02:32:08 PM
- 1387 Views
Curious George is a tale of many layers, as told by Werner Herzog
26/01/2010 02:34:27 PM
- 1407 Views
On what basis?
26/01/2010 02:51:40 PM
- 1342 Views
It's a children's book. Get over it. Democracy failed.
26/01/2010 02:55:03 PM
- 1345 Views
Usually does, when those who know better keep silent.
26/01/2010 02:57:54 PM
- 1248 Views
Regarding comfort zones
26/01/2010 05:08:50 PM
- 1366 Views
Camilla, let's be honest here...
26/01/2010 05:40:08 PM
- 1354 Views
Re: Camilla, let's be honest here...
26/01/2010 09:10:47 PM
- 1349 Views
If that's your goal, Camilla, you failed.
27/01/2010 01:35:52 PM
- 1410 Views
Possibly
27/01/2010 01:38:39 PM
- 1277 Views
I have not been ranting and raving. I've been highly critical of the book, with much justification.
27/01/2010 01:45:05 PM
- 1278 Views
Re: I've been highly critical of the book, with much justification.
27/01/2010 01:53:28 PM
- 1267 Views
I was wondering how long it would take for you to blame me and Greg.
27/01/2010 02:26:12 PM
- 1399 Views
Don't you get it? We bring this place down.
27/01/2010 02:42:32 PM
- 1250 Views
Heh heh heh. Pink cardigan-wearing suburban cul-de-sac. I like it. *NM*
27/01/2010 03:11:25 PM
- 643 Views
Re: I was wondering how long it would take for you to blame me and Greg.
27/01/2010 02:43:11 PM
- 1263 Views
While that was not the intent, that is an added bonus.
27/01/2010 02:48:47 PM
- 1258 Views
why is it a bonus?
27/01/2010 02:52:58 PM
- 1229 Views
I said see above. You should have before the thought police, Rebekah, started to delete.
27/01/2010 02:59:07 PM
- 1511 Views
Well, you wouldn't grow tired of us calling a novel shit if you chose a novel that wasn't shit.
27/01/2010 03:11:57 PM
- 1249 Views
Re: Regarding comfort zones
27/01/2010 11:57:03 AM
- 1325 Views
So. I really liked it.
26/01/2010 08:57:02 AM
- 1393 Views
Yes, fearless leader, this is where I stand.
26/01/2010 11:04:23 PM
- 1270 Views
Re: Yes, fearless leader, this is where I stand.
26/01/2010 11:49:03 PM
- 1311 Views
We were talking about this last night.
27/01/2010 11:14:21 AM
- 1391 Views
Re: We were talking about this last night.
27/01/2010 11:37:04 AM
- 1392 Views
If you do that, I'm posting on the deeper meaning of Dan Brown.
27/01/2010 01:46:35 PM
- 1366 Views
Feel free to.
27/01/2010 01:51:23 PM
- 1338 Views
Your post-modern take on the novel is shit, shit, shit.
27/01/2010 02:28:56 PM
- 1301 Views
Re: Your post-modern take on the novel is shit, shit, shit.
27/01/2010 02:45:41 PM
- 1323 Views
I'm not setting up a straw man. I'm challenging your touchy-feely approach.
27/01/2010 03:15:00 PM
- 1206 Views
My touchy-feely approach?
27/01/2010 05:09:04 PM
- 1227 Views
Yes...using passing references in the text to justify a deeper analysis.
27/01/2010 05:16:10 PM
- 1279 Views
Doesn't touchy-feely mean that it is steeped in or based on emotion?
27/01/2010 06:40:31 PM
- 1250 Views
I think between the two of you I agree more with Tom here.
27/01/2010 07:01:08 PM
- 1256 Views
Re: I think between the two of you I agree more with Tom here.
27/01/2010 08:29:32 PM
- 1309 Views
See my reply to Tom for clarification, then.
27/01/2010 08:57:18 PM
- 1353 Views
Re: See my reply to Tom for clarification, then.
27/01/2010 09:09:47 PM
- 1269 Views
Er. Whose position are you arguing - mine or yours?
27/01/2010 10:33:01 PM
- 1152 Views
Mine. Which is more complicated than a simple rejection. That is what I am saying.
01/02/2010 12:53:58 PM
- 1129 Views
Do it. I'd read that.
27/01/2010 01:55:23 PM
- 1390 Views
All righty, that's enough of that. For Tom, Greg, and... no, pretty much just you two.
27/01/2010 04:33:00 PM
- 1323 Views
I call bullshit. I have been conducting the debate in a measured fashion.
27/01/2010 04:50:35 PM
- 1278 Views
And ANOTHER THING
27/01/2010 05:05:17 PM
- 1189 Views
Not everyone has finished reading it yet *NM*
27/01/2010 05:12:10 PM
- 704 Views
Okay, so you'll get one or two stragglers in a week to a month. It changes nothing.
27/01/2010 05:17:51 PM
- 1338 Views
Re: Okay, so you'll get one or two stragglers in a week to a month. It changes nothing.
27/01/2010 06:41:11 PM
- 1299 Views
We are discussing this book. We're discussing its faults.
27/01/2010 07:30:49 PM
- 1220 Views
In the interest of discussing Dumas' intentions...
27/01/2010 08:03:24 PM
- 1391 Views
Re: We are discussing this book. We're discussing its faults.
27/01/2010 08:30:19 PM
- 1361 Views
The text doesn't warrant "close attention" any more than Dan Brown's works do.
27/01/2010 09:10:45 PM
- 1228 Views
Also, do you think a good book would have generated this level of discussion? Of course not.
27/01/2010 05:21:45 PM
- 1265 Views
What discussion?
27/01/2010 06:42:32 PM
- 1293 Views
I said that we couldn't discuss the book on its own terms.
27/01/2010 07:35:32 PM
- 1378 Views
Which I still think we can.
27/01/2010 08:35:35 PM
- 1258 Views
Perhaps you shouldn't be breaking things down at all.
27/01/2010 09:06:59 PM
- 1367 Views
Re: Perhaps you shouldn't be breaking things down at all.
27/01/2010 09:12:22 PM
- 1311 Views
I apologize if I'm part of the reason you feel ganged up on.
27/01/2010 10:40:36 PM
- 1278 Views
Re: I apologize if I'm part of the reason you feel ganged up on.
01/02/2010 12:56:03 PM
- 1199 Views
Deary me.
27/01/2010 05:19:58 PM
- 1469 Views
By "respect" do you mean that you want me to drop my debates?
27/01/2010 05:24:03 PM
- 1222 Views
Not at all.
27/01/2010 05:35:34 PM
- 1404 Views
I'm sorry as well - if I had any kind of willpower, it wouldn't have gotten that far.
27/01/2010 06:29:43 PM
- 1304 Views
On the nature of the "Book Club"
28/01/2010 09:23:23 PM
- 1138 Views
Any chance of seeing some shorter suggestions?
28/01/2010 10:20:59 PM
- 1362 Views
Yes, shorter would be good.
28/01/2010 10:23:28 PM
- 1214 Views
Well, you should have known better!
29/01/2010 01:29:40 AM
- 1254 Views
All I can say is The Master and Margarita better be one by March. WE WAS ROBBED. *NM*
29/01/2010 02:31:48 AM
- 609 Views
Well I'm late to the party
29/01/2010 06:21:18 AM
- 1193 Views
No, you're early
01/02/2010 01:26:10 PM
- 1097 Views
I still have yet to see that discussion, Camilla. *NM*
03/02/2010 12:46:24 AM
- 669 Views
Interesting way of dismissing what has already been discussed about the book
03/02/2010 04:22:26 AM
- 1356 Views
Nah, there's been discussion, here and there inbetween the fighting. *NM*
03/02/2010 04:39:24 PM
- 612 Views
An interesting quote from the book - does it jibe with your experience?
29/01/2010 11:23:54 PM
- 1269 Views