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Re: Perhaps he is making an argument for Bull Halseys view of history: Joel Send a noteboard - 13/07/2015 08:49:15 PM

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There are no great men, just great challenges which ordinary men, out of necessity, are forced by circumstances to meet.
It is a distinctively American notion, notwithstanding the strong counterevidence of our Founders (or, at the other extreme, our Civil War "leaders,") and, ironically, the so-called "Greatest Generation" supports it better than any other. This sounds like just a variation on the classic comparison between FDR and Hitler: Elected almost simultaneously under very similar conditions, the radical differences between their strategies, tactics and policies produced equally different results. And yes, I am well aware of how strongly you deny ANY difference existed, but you are surely just as aware how few agree, and that the comparison has often been made in the stated terms, with the basic argument that, had their locations been reversed, Hitler would just as easily have been elected in the US or FDR in Germany.

So perhaps Turtledove is just making a popular alternate history argument that history has an inherent inertia and destiny so much larger than any individual or small group as to be independent of particular humans, instead dictated by HUMANITY, mostly in acts predating any contemporary actors. In short, history written by the ancestors, not the victors, whose most significant victory was in a genetic lottery over which they had no influence. From that perspective, replacing FDR with Joe Stalin, Joe Blow or anyone else could not have changed history more than superficially.

Needless to say, I have not READ the book, so am only "speculating." Despite a strong general interest in both history and "speculative fiction" (as distinct from fiction restricted to concrete observed fact ) I have read very little alternate history, none of which includes Turtledove. But I have read enough to recognize signs of one of the genres popular tropes, and the description of this book exhibits many of them.

It's possible, I suppose. I've read a bit of the genre, and a lot of the particular author, but there is something different I am having trouble articulating here.

Having read little of the genre and none of the book, I can only guess as to the nature of that "something."


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View original postfor the record, I believe the truth is a combination of his view and that of history as the work of extraordinary men.)
A belief I share.

The wealth of strong evidence for both views argues against wholly dismissing either; they are polar opposites, but not necessarily mutually exclusive.


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View original postAs for the rest, could Steels unexplained antipathy to Trotsky be simply an inside joke Turtledove winking at history and his readers?

Yeah, come to think of it, that is EXACTLY his M.O. He usually reserves those things for less critical plot points, however, rather than as a major motivation for a significant character.

I imagine that temptation irresistable for anyone with sufficient knowledge of and interest in history to write alternate versions. Many Worlds advocates could even seriously justify it as "bleed through" from parallel versions of people ultimately one person. If Many Worlds is valid, there may be a few alternate timelines where Burr and Hamilton were the fiercest friends and allies, but those must surely be overwhelmed by countless others where their circustances and natures caused implacable mutual hatred till the day one killed the other.


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View original postAnd on the subject of glass: A national bank=/=NATIONALIZING banks any more than a national army means conscripting every man, woman and child in the nation. Neither Hamiltons creation of the first national bank, Madisons of the second nor Wilsons of the third NATIONALIZED anything. It is a safe bet Glass would have been among the first to object had the Federal Reserve constituted anything of the sort, but the US Treasury farming out its minting duties to PRIVATE bankers who then SELL US OUR OWN MONEY is privatization, the antithesis of socialism.
Actually that's crony capitalism, however redundant you might call that term. There is nothing in the free market ideal allowing for such monopolies.

Sure it is crony capitalism, an antonym rather than synonym of socialism. But it is also privatization because government by We the People does not simply cede private indivuals our POWER to mint our own money, but formal AUTHORITY to do so INSTEAD of our representative government. That places one of societys most vital fundamental powers in hands unaccountable to society for use of it, the grave danger of which is self-evident. Nothing short of privatizing the military could be more liable to and thus certain of broad, tyrannical, draconian abuse. Merging corporate power with state was Mussolinis definition of fascism; while he used "corporate" less literally than we, the difference is largely semantic.

As to whether crony capitalism is a candidate for the Department of Redundancy Dept., I would not go that far. Socialism absent degrees and kinds of capitalism is mere communism, as much a Bad Idea as laissez-faire capitalism, for a reason only nominally distinct. Modern society works best (i.e. only) when consumer-worker-voters force Big Business and Big Brother to compete for our favor rather than diminishing one and empowering the other until the latter can make We the People compete with the former for ITS favor. There are many free prosperous socialist states, but all have robust private capitalist components; the one remaining communist state is among the Earths least prosperous and arguably its least free.

One might (as this one DOES) call the market made flesh antithetical to the Word Made Flesh, but that ultimate moral dimension is, sadly, usually viewed separately from consequent ones of "liberty, equality and fraternity" whether one worships God or mammon (though the current Pope is encouraging.)

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Joe Steel by Harry Turtledove - 01/07/2015 08:30:26 PM 989 Views
Perhaps he is making an argument for Bull Halseys view of history: - 10/07/2015 11:13:25 PM 674 Views
Re: Perhaps he is making an argument for Bull Halseys view of history: - 13/07/2015 03:57:23 PM 769 Views
Re: Perhaps he is making an argument for Bull Halseys view of history: - 13/07/2015 08:49:15 PM 853 Views

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