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A few thoughts on your thoughts: Tom Send a noteboard - 14/08/2013 08:58:51 PM

It's true that there aren't really many linguistic minorities in the usual sense of the word in Italy - there's some Slovene, Provençal, Friulian, German and so on on the northern borders, and iirc Catalan in one town on Sardinia, but apart from that it's all just dialects of Italian. No religious splits, either. Now that you got me thinking about it, the Italian kind of regionalism and separatism is indeed quite special that way...

In the conventional sense, no, there aren't. However, modern Italian is Tuscan in a way that modern French is not Parisian - there are a lot more regional dialects that are still spoken. For example, the Savoy "dialect" is really almost a separate language, and it's hard to understand Sicilian. Imagine if each major region of France had a spoken dialect as distinct as Occitan.


You have to add, though, that much like the French in the Hundred Years War, the Italians sometimes got a surprising amount done even so - Venice and Genoa in particular. Not so much anymore in the days of the united Italian kingdom, admittedly, but the unification itself was a textbook illustration of that ability. Adowa however was truly sad. Not really sure yet who to believe on the achievements of the Italian armies in the First World War, but in the Second it was again quite sad, indeed.

I have to say that Montanelli, like almost everyone else, really does see Venice as something separate - he mentions it when he writes about Italy, but it was independent for so long, and saw itself as separate from the rest of Italy in such a forceful sense, that its military history in some of its colonial exploits was left out of the analysis. However, it too had to resort to condottiere armies because it didn't have enough people to wage war in Italy proper, and its military record on land (as opposed to on the sea) was actually not stellar by any means, just not as uniformly embarrassing as that of the rest of Italy. After the fall of Venice's overseas empire, its traditions were also destroyed. As for Genoa, it really is more bravado than competence.
Not as bad as Hitler, to be sure, but then that's not saying much. Perhaps not as bad as Franco, either, but that too is damning with faint praise to say the least (despite Cannoli's deranged associations beween Franco and El Cid...). And in his defense, the Italian troops in the Spanish Civil War (I realize the relevance is once again limited, but it's the most recent history I've read involving Mussolini) seem to have been far more humane than either the Nazi troops or Franco's scum.

I would say he wasn't as bad as a lot of overly powerful presidents who might as well be considered dictators. He was also certainly easily as competent as Hollande in France is now, if not more so.
I really don't know the details on the Moro case, but I trust you're aware that it's not as clear-cut as you make it out to be. And Bologna was, at least off the top of my head, the deadliest terrorist attack in Europe until Atocha, so you may want to be a bit more cautious in defending the Right. And while it will no doubt take a long time before we have all the details, Gladio has been linked to paramilitary and terrorist activity in other countries besides Italy (such as my own, notably).

Wait just a minute. Bologna was pinned on the right almost immediately after it happened, but it has never been conclusively proven. In those years, almost everything was blamed on the right, despite the fact that they never constituted a large or powerful movement. In fact, a lot of Red Brigades actions were blamed on the right, even after the Red Brigades openly took responsibility. The Mitrokhin files point to international terrorism and Carlos the Jackal and I have no reason to doubt them; they were the most comprehensive and wide-ranging disclosure of KGB files and they have been accepted by most respectable specialists in the field.

Whatever the story is on Gladio in other countries, in Italy it seems that it has just added to the general atmosphere of mutual blame that the left and the right level at one another. Essentially, each person will choose who to believe based on what seems most plausible. I think that the Left's interpretation of Gladio in Italy is highly unlikely and absurd.

As for Berlusconi, we will have to agree to disagree. I don't see him as the problem in Italy. I see a massive state bureaucracy (by some counts the largest per capita in Europe, at 6-7% of the total workforce), unsustainable social programs that rival those of France, and organized crime as Italy's problems. Berlusconi, to his credit, tried to cut the bureaucracy and the social programs. I don't care if he has sex with almost every woman he finds attractive, and I don't care if one of them was slightly underage. I also don't care if he doesn't pay his taxes in a nation that has some of the highest taxes in all of Europe and one of the highest rates of tax evasion, because he's just doing what everyone else is. If he is fighting to cut the power and size of Italy's government, he is doing a good thing. Europe needs a real Right, because it hasn't had one for too long and it's bankrupting Europe in a hurry.

Yes, there are allegations of corruption, but those sorts of allegations have been made about almost everyone in Italian politics, so I don't see how Berlusconi is any different.

Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.

ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius

Ummaka qinnassa nīk!

*MySmiley*
This message last edited by Tom on 14/08/2013 at 09:01:33 PM
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