Nobody is arguing that she does not say yes at that point. The arguemnt is that she is 13 and therefore not in a position to give consent, and that it is therefore especially problematic that Martin emphasises the consent to such an extent.
I would agree with regards to that scene alone. However, later on it is emphasised that Dany does not enjoy these initial encounters with Drogo (consent or not) and does not do so until Drogo starts to respect her wishes, so her consent may be technically given but she's still not happy about the situation (something that should have been emphasised in the first scene more).
However, whilst it may have been written in modern times and be set in another world, the books are very clearly closely based on the real medieval period (moreso than any other work of fantasy I know of, with the possible exception of Kate Elliott's CROWN OF STARS series) when children were expected to marry and bear offspring of their own, often at exceptionally young ages. The issues of how this clashes with modern sensibilities are very deliberately placed in the narrative. It's meant to be problematic and make readers question the situation. It's also interesting to see how this scene is dealt with by people of other nationalities: in many European countries the age of consent is 14, with informal tolerance of things happening a year or two earlier, and in such cases the scene is regarded rather differently (to the point where the age issue is disregarded and the consent one becomes paramount) from in the UK and USA where it is significantly higher.
As I said earlier, I think that scene is hamstrung by GRRM being unusually timid (perhaps rightfully so given the circumstances) and backtracking a little from the full unpleasentness of the situation. The HBO series definitely handled this scene better, one of the few instances where it is possible to say that.
Again. That does not seem to include the wedding night. I completely agree that between the wedding night and some later date, she is fairly violently raped by her husband. But the wedding night is presented in a very different way. Hence my distinction. The only one of these scenes that I am describing as "seductive" or "erotic" is the wedding night (although later encounters where she consents or even initiates are also highly problematic).
*MySmiley*
structured procrastinator
structured procrastinator
A Game of Thrones by George R. R. Martin
13/08/2012 10:48:37 PM
- 8864 Views
Fascinating.
13/08/2012 11:40:22 PM
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On the Rape issue....
14/08/2012 01:19:35 AM
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Re: On the Rape issue....
14/08/2012 02:02:42 AM
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Firstly, Camilla is a she. Secondly, though I won't speak for her, regarding the rape in the novels,
14/08/2012 02:23:19 AM
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Camilla is indeed a she.
14/08/2012 06:18:58 AM
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Re: On the Rape issue....
14/08/2012 06:17:55 AM
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How is that a violent rape? At worst it would be statutory rape.
17/08/2012 11:53:44 AM
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The wedding night is statutory. I would describe the later rapes as fairly violent.
17/08/2012 12:13:26 PM
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That was her only sex scene, until she induces him to have outdoor sex to get pregnant
17/08/2012 07:20:09 PM
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It is not necessary to provide a scene
17/08/2012 10:49:20 PM
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I believe that what is happening here is called confirmation bias *NM*
21/08/2012 06:23:38 PM
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I think you misread one part
14/08/2012 04:51:34 PM
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I think that the Rhaegar and Lyanna stuff does look like rape in the first book
14/08/2012 08:10:27 PM
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"Looks like" is this case meaning "explicitly stated to be that way"?
17/08/2012 11:56:48 AM
- 2019 Views
what a great review. you echo my thoughts quite a bit...
15/08/2012 01:21:38 AM
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Re: what a great review. you echo my thoughts quite a bit...
15/08/2012 07:39:24 AM
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philippa gregory co-authored a book "the women of the cousins' war" - it was very interesting
16/08/2012 07:54:50 PM
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Wait...why would you waste time reading this fluff series when it's out on TV?
16/08/2012 12:10:32 AM
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I always liked the banners and pageantry - it creates an interesting contrast...
16/08/2012 11:52:40 PM
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Re: I always liked the banners and pageantry - it creates an interesting contrast...
17/08/2012 06:33:24 AM
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I think the TV series handles the problematic Dany/Drogo relationship better
17/08/2012 12:20:16 AM
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Re: I think the TV series handles the problematic Dany/Drogo relationship better
17/08/2012 06:40:12 AM
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I think it messed it up by showing forced intercourse without the verbal consent Drogo DID obtain
17/08/2012 12:07:14 PM
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I still find it difficult to read it as anything other than a coerced consent
17/08/2012 01:08:15 PM
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A perpetrator-less crime then.
17/08/2012 07:26:26 PM
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Exactly! I'm on board, Cannoli.
18/08/2012 07:45:56 PM
- 1976 Views
You are missing the point.
18/08/2012 11:11:33 PM
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Re: You are missing the point.
19/08/2012 01:25:30 PM
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Re: You are missing the point.
19/08/2012 01:40:11 PM
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The later books do add more context and change some of this
19/08/2012 12:08:49 AM
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Jesus Christ another fucking thread about rape and fantasy.
19/08/2012 01:47:43 AM
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Perhaps if reading other people's views makes you so angry, you should avoid reading them? *NM*
19/08/2012 02:37:03 PM
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Nonsense.
19/08/2012 03:33:39 PM
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Fixed it for you.
19/08/2012 08:22:18 PM
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Oh, but that takes us back to snoop being right, and I'm sorry, but I just cannot abide that.
19/08/2012 10:56:10 PM
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Shake the sand out of your vagina bitch. *NM*
20/08/2012 06:35:32 AM
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Gosh, this is really turning into something fun.
20/08/2012 07:15:01 AM
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Here I was about to make a "whee misogyny" post. I never get to have fun. *NM*
20/08/2012 09:09:04 AM
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Huh. I just came to the odd realization...
20/08/2012 08:29:56 PM
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Don't lock it!
21/08/2012 05:11:34 AM
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Yes, I'm aware, or I might have locked it already.
21/08/2012 06:17:29 PM
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That is the best written and most insightful review of that book I have read
01/09/2012 05:38:00 PM
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I forgot that I was supposed to read all threads to watch out for Bad Behaviour.
01/09/2012 11:09:52 PM
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