Yes, well, I was semi-serious with the "pretending to understand Italian".
Legolas Send a noteboard - 21/03/2012 07:58:35 PM
I did more or less try to read their other article, but only skimmed over the one with the quotes - guess I should fix that oversight, but Dante is rather hard to read than simple modern Italian. There's only so much I can make of those passages.
I was under the impression the Giuda-Giudecca thing was a big factor in their claims of anti-Semitism - and the associations it created. I dare say Dante wasn't the first to make that pseudo-etymological link, but calling the deepest layer of Hell the "Giudecca" does rather suggest anti-semitism to me that goes beyond the person of Judas. That said, see next paragraph.
I don't think it's these guys' contention that Dante was particularly Islamophobic, anti-Semitic, homophobic or offensive by the standards of his time (indeed, that would have been a rather difficult thesis to defend even if he'd been still worse than he is). Their point is that those passages are all those things by modern standards, and that Italian education rather fails at putting them in their proper historical perspective. Which, as I noted elsewhere, is of course not a statement that we can easily verify.
There is certainly something gratuitous about this thing in the way they thrive off the publicity created by the suggestion of removing Dante from the compulsory curriculum. An intentional provocation to guarantee them media attention for their rather less revolutionary goals (and media attention for whatever other projects they may have going in the bargain). But they're not nearly so foolish as you make them out to be.
The people complaining are really full of shit. If anything, it's less plausible than that repellent anti-Tolkien rant by that stupid bitch a few weeks ago. The passage about Judas being chewed is interpreted liberally as "anti-Semitic" - I wonder if that makes Dante anti-Italian as well considering the other two traitors being chewed are Cassius and Brutus? Essentially, the anti-Semitism is simply in the fact that Dante has the betrayer of Christ in the maw of Satan, and these dipshits have extrapolated that to blanket anti-Semitism (I wonder what their opinion of the New Testament is?).
I was under the impression the Giuda-Giudecca thing was a big factor in their claims of anti-Semitism - and the associations it created. I dare say Dante wasn't the first to make that pseudo-etymological link, but calling the deepest layer of Hell the "Giudecca" does rather suggest anti-semitism to me that goes beyond the person of Judas. That said, see next paragraph.
The Muhammed phrase is cited solely because he's rendered in half the same way that all sowers of dissension are, and that some comparison is made to a wineskin, and wine is "not permitted in Islamic law". That is extrapolated to show "a lack of respect for Islam", despite the fact that, as you pointed out Averroes is in with virtuous non-Christians and other Islamic influences were brought to bear, and that, given the times he was writing in, Dante is actually not all that anti-Muslim.
I don't think it's these guys' contention that Dante was particularly Islamophobic, anti-Semitic, homophobic or offensive by the standards of his time (indeed, that would have been a rather difficult thesis to defend even if he'd been still worse than he is). Their point is that those passages are all those things by modern standards, and that Italian education rather fails at putting them in their proper historical perspective. Which, as I noted elsewhere, is of course not a statement that we can easily verify.
Essentially, they're grasping at straws just to get some controversy. People like that deserve to be dumped into raw sewage and forgotten.
There is certainly something gratuitous about this thing in the way they thrive off the publicity created by the suggestion of removing Dante from the compulsory curriculum. An intentional provocation to guarantee them media attention for their rather less revolutionary goals (and media attention for whatever other projects they may have going in the bargain). But they're not nearly so foolish as you make them out to be.
Divine Comedy is "offensive and discriminatory", says Italian NGO
20/03/2012 07:25:08 PM
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Duh?
20/03/2012 07:38:41 PM
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It does kind of feel like we should know more about how it's taught in Italian schools.
20/03/2012 07:50:36 PM
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Isn't the fundamental basis of Christanity mutually exclusive to Judaism and Islam?
20/03/2012 08:33:51 PM
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That's a really good point that I hadn't considered. I agree. *NM*
22/03/2012 09:05:00 AM
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Just because someone is in Hell doesn't mean you should discriminate against them
20/03/2012 08:23:22 PM
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Not having read any Dante is kind of hurting my ability to reply to that.
20/03/2012 10:08:52 PM
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Odd, considering you linked the "offending passages"
20/03/2012 11:54:34 PM
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Yes, well, I was semi-serious with the "pretending to understand Italian".
21/03/2012 07:58:35 PM
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I rather agree with you
21/03/2012 10:09:01 PM
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Taking the Divine Comedy off the curriculum would be like taking Shakespeare out in the UK.
21/03/2012 10:48:15 PM
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But some works of Flaubert aren't considered OK for compulsory reads...
22/03/2012 05:27:04 AM
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The last part of Hell is Giudecca because of Judas.
21/03/2012 10:30:36 PM
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And you don't see what's offensive about that?
21/03/2012 11:11:16 PM
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You are making an assumption that Dante named it after Jewish quarters.
21/03/2012 11:24:47 PM
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Wait, let's be clear just how bat-shit Rick Santorum crazy these assholes are.
21/03/2012 01:06:49 AM
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They also dont seem to realize just how many Muslim nations are calling for the eradication of Israe *NM*
21/03/2012 04:33:53 PM
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There's some things in that paragraph one can roll one's eyes at, aye - but that's as far as it goes
21/03/2012 08:06:32 PM
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Are you serious?! Did you read the whole paragraph?
21/03/2012 10:24:56 PM
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I certainly did. Though as it turns out I had not read their other articles...
21/03/2012 10:59:51 PM
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I saw that. Seems a little misguided
21/03/2012 07:04:06 AM
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That's what they're advocating. And I wouldn't know - they seem to think it is. *NM*
21/03/2012 08:08:53 PM
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I think that sometimes people take "politicly correct" tooooo far... *NM*
21/03/2012 08:20:31 AM
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Let me sum up my opinion on this as succinctly and clearly as I can:
21/03/2012 11:50:37 PM
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