Active Users:1167 Time:22/11/2024 01:47:03 PM
As a sort of group answer (I've been mostly absent from forums the past two days) Larry Send a noteboard - 31/01/2012 10:45:55 PM
Clearly my Tolkien fanboy-hood can still use some work. :P


I'd like to quote what someone said over at her blog that I think captures my own feelings on this:

I think “epic work of creative genius” and “full of racism, sexism, and classism” aren’t necessarily mutually exclusive. I mean, I love Dickens, but he was writing a hundred years before Tolkien and pretty much everything said in defense and criticism of Tolkien applies to Dickens as well.

That said, I read The Hobbit as a kid, but I’ve never actually made it through Lord of the Rings. For an epic fantasy adventure, LotR is really pretty damned boring most of the time.

The problem with the “man of his time” defense it that it assumes it’s good enough to be just a typical specimen of your era. Tolkien was certainly no worse than most of his contemporaries, and he was probably a relatively decent man with no active malice towards other races, but neither did he make any effort to be better than his contemporaries. It’s like people today who think it’s good enough just to agree that the KKK is awful and rape is bad. I don’t think Tolkien particularly deserves to be hated on, but he certainly deserves no accolades for progressiveness or enlightenment.

And as is so often the case, the fanboys could enjoy their Tolkien sans defensiveness if they were just willing to admit that what they love is problematic. You can enjoy something that’s great and flawed and acknowledge the flaws. Like Dickens.



It's easy to take offense when your world-views are challenged. Very few are proud of their prejudices, but almost as few don't want to admit that they have any. The difference between having social/ethnic prejudices and racism, however, is that one can be held without that other person being at serious danger of her life being threatened or loss of status occurring while the other has a whole social system that subconsciously reinforces that view.

I can be quite prejudicial toward Yankees and the English, but due to being relegated to "other" categorization (Southerner, Irish/Cherokee), it will hardly affect status. But tell a Mexican joke or make a comment about women and/or gays/lesbians and there's a bit more weight behind it, because of how those views have been institutionalized at various times in American (and by extension, Western) history. That's my response to the issue of whether or not the blogger in question can be "racist" or not. She may hold prejudicial views (who doesn't), but they are hardly "racist" if they aren't institutionalized to some extent.

As for Tolkien, are his views any different than how many of us (or our family/friends) are when it comes to someone of a different ethnic/social background? That's the real issue, I suspect and I would answer "Not really." I have my own race/class-based prejudices to work on, so why is there such defensiveness when it comes to the fact that an author made some comments and wrote some characters that current readers may find to be objectionable? Best to work on removing those specks from our eyes, I think.
Illusions fall like the husk of a fruit, one after another, and the fruit is experience. - Narrator, Sylvie

Je suis méchant.
Reply to message
The racist elements in Tolkien's writing - 29/01/2012 01:31:02 PM 2494 Views
She has some points, of course. - 29/01/2012 02:25:32 PM 1273 Views
Quite a few points - 29/01/2012 02:40:45 PM 1368 Views
Re: Quite a few points - 29/01/2012 04:59:11 PM 1131 Views
Mostly agreed with the article, but thought she undermined herself with her own racism. - 29/01/2012 02:50:11 PM 1340 Views
I wish I could agree with you, but I can't in full - 29/01/2012 02:58:05 PM 1333 Views
I'm not bothered by the tone. Annoyance is justified. - 29/01/2012 03:03:07 PM 1272 Views
Re: I wish I could agree with you, but I can't in full - 30/01/2012 02:11:07 PM 1284 Views
Do you really believe that? - 30/01/2012 02:44:19 PM 1348 Views
Just read your Twitter convo... nice try, but looks like wasted effort. *NM* - 29/01/2012 10:37:08 PM 578 Views
Yes. - 29/01/2012 10:41:15 PM 1019 Views
Oh, also: - 29/01/2012 03:07:03 PM 1085 Views
Well, I'll be honest. - 29/01/2012 10:34:46 PM 1216 Views
Let me try to summarize some of her points with the invective filtered out, then. - 29/01/2012 10:48:24 PM 1410 Views
Thank you. - 29/01/2012 11:10:13 PM 1441 Views
What the hell, might as well go and play devil's advocate, right? - 30/01/2012 04:50:30 PM 1347 Views
I expected that. - 30/01/2012 05:39:59 PM 1246 Views
Of course you did. I'm predictable that way. - 30/01/2012 10:28:10 PM 1233 Views
Re: Of course you did. I'm predictable that way. - 31/01/2012 12:39:46 AM 1134 Views
Re: Of course you did. I'm predictable that way. - 31/01/2012 08:38:46 PM 1178 Views
I <3 you, but there are several very key things we are not going to agree on. - 31/01/2012 10:02:22 PM 1598 Views
Oh. - 31/01/2012 11:07:52 PM 1241 Views
- 01/02/2012 12:17:59 AM 1349 Views
Hmm? - 31/01/2012 10:10:22 PM 1166 Views
Yeah. I got to reading Encyclopedia of Arda just now, and it told me the same thing. - 31/01/2012 10:35:54 PM 1089 Views
As a sort of group answer (I've been mostly absent from forums the past two days) - 31/01/2012 10:45:55 PM 1431 Views
I don't mind if you tell me I'm out of line here, but - 31/01/2012 11:55:04 PM 1272 Views
I'm rarely ever offended - 01/02/2012 01:54:58 AM 1457 Views
She was referring specifically to the Twitter "conversation" I had with the blogger. - 01/02/2012 09:05:28 AM 1240 Views
Yes. - 01/02/2012 10:47:22 AM 1370 Views
It makes me wonder what she thinks is happening in Zimbabwe, for example. - 01/02/2012 11:13:11 AM 1407 Views
I've been thinking about that. - 01/02/2012 11:29:18 AM 1197 Views
Re: I've been thinking about that. - 01/02/2012 11:40:11 AM 1466 Views
We're nuts. - 01/02/2012 03:09:15 PM 1203 Views
I know that - 01/02/2012 11:15:48 AM 1260 Views
That blog post was mostly good, but the exception is a rather large one. - 01/02/2012 08:35:57 PM 1118 Views
Do you mean exception*S*? - 02/02/2012 04:27:03 AM 1192 Views
The Hobbit came out in 1937. - 30/01/2012 01:35:45 AM 1167 Views
She hates Tolkien's writings to begin with ... - 30/01/2012 06:34:29 AM 1308 Views
The tone of the article is massively annoying - 30/01/2012 06:45:19 AM 1346 Views
I laughed while reading it - 30/01/2012 04:30:50 PM 1215 Views

Reply to Message