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Yes and no. Werthead Send a noteboard - 20/12/2011 03:10:54 PM
How does this makes sense? The areas bordering Dorne, the Stormlands and the Reach, should have been influenced by it somewhat at least. The existence of Dorne as an isolated social entity for thousands of years makes no sense. Especially when, as a political and economic entity, they are far from isolated from the rest of the Seven Kingdoms.


Dorne was at war, on and off, with the Storm Kingdom and the Kingdom of the Reach, from almost the moment it was founded until Aegon's invasion, a period of about one thousand years. It was also isolated by geography (mountains and seas) from the rest of the Seven Kingdoms, as well as culture. Antagonistic nations can exist right next to one another without sharing cultural norms, as can be seen in real life and history, let alone in numerous other fantasy works (WoT rather unrealistically has cultural tics screeching to a halt at the border of one country and new ones starting just past it even though the countries have been at peace for decades or centuries, with little of the blendings you see in real life, say along the French-German border).

And why is this so? Doesn't that fact that the Ironborn culture is even more misogynistic than its supposed real world parallel, with no real in story explanation for the same (prizing martial skills doesn't quite cut it, since any number of cultures IRL have done so and still not dis-empowered women to the same extent), bother you?


The ironborn culture favours reaving above just about everything else, which was not the case with the Vikings (who spent a lot more time running households and working the land). The ironborn attitudes to reaving seem to have spilled over to holding all of those who do not fight, including their own women (but also land-workers, thralls, merchants, foreign priests etc), in disfavour. Note that these attitudes are not universal (the Reader of Harlaw doesn't share these attitudes) and even Asha's activities are tolerated to a fairly large degree.

It does occur to me during this discussion that actually the most equal societies we've seen in Westeros - apart from the Dornish - are actually the wildlings and the mountain clans (where women can fight, lead tribes and wield authority without any major issues), which is interesting.

And there is no explanation in the books for why these two organizations disfavor women to such an extent.


Fair criticism. The Seven are not dominated by male figures (three male and three female, with the Stranger being sometimes regarded as male but also as a sort of sexless force of nature) in the same way Christianity was/is (God being represented as male, Jesus being male, the apostles being male etc). The Faith should probably be more equal, more like the religion in Kate Elliott's CROWN OF STARS series.

The maesters are also an anomaly. In real medieval life, women often ran the castles and households whilst their husbands were away, and required knowledge of accounts, ledgers and the ordering of the castle and lands. There are indications this is the same in Westeros (Catelyn neglects such matters after Bran is injured, leaving Robb to sort them out), so women would have to learn a lot from the maesters. Even if we accept that the maesters want to handle such matters themselves as part of their conspiracy to hold back information for their own purposes, there is no explanation for how this precludes women being part of that conspiracy.

At the same time, we don't have much worldbuilding background on either the septons or maesters in Westeros, so the picture is incomplete.

None of those were causes for the lack of female empowerment. They were consequences. Yes, the lack of women in positions of power in the Church had its trickle down effect, but the lack of female empowerment did not start there, just as it did not start with barring them from inheriting land, or preventing them from attending Universities. The reasons for the lack of female power were a lot more complex, and the author basically wants us to take "medieval=misogyny" as a reasonable explanation.


True. I think there is an argument that Martin has used the iconography and imagery of the medieval period without also necessarily replicating the background that led to those things being the case. The only major historical element I can think of in Westeros that might have caused women to be viewed with suspicion was if they were blamed for the civil wars (Naerys for the Blackfyre Rebellion and Rhaenyra for the Dance of Dragons), but even that is a bit of a stretch.

And this is precisely what a lot of people object to in a lot of gritty fantasies. The lack of female agency is taken as a default state, one that requires no more subtle an explanation than "Dark Age Parallel!". Its true of Martin, from the little I read, its true of Bakker, and definitely true of Goodkind, who has even less excuse than these others.


As I said earlier, many of the female characters in Martin do have agency and quite a few of the cultures are reasonably equal (the Valyrians/Volantenes, the wildlings, the Dornish etc), however, so the criticism is a little over-wrought. Bakker is a fair comment, as is Goodkind (who does have a couple of major female characters, but they exist and are defined solely by their relationship with the male characters).
This message last edited by Werthead on 20/12/2011 at 03:22:44 PM
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Violence, rape, and agency in the "gritty fantasies" - 17/12/2011 01:36:54 PM 1740 Views
Hm, ok. - 17/12/2011 10:51:21 PM 1140 Views
I think we largely agree - 17/12/2011 11:23:00 PM 1032 Views
Re: Hm, ok. - 26/12/2011 01:08:14 AM 1024 Views
Martin, Goodkind... - 18/12/2011 01:58:33 PM 1043 Views
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Re: More than just those - 26/12/2011 01:13:21 AM 898 Views
Re: Martin, Goodkind... - 26/12/2011 01:11:12 AM 914 Views
On more of a "meta" level, what makes a fantasy story "gritty" in the first place? - 19/12/2011 02:58:57 PM 918 Views
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I agree about Martin - haven't read enough Bakker to judge. - 19/12/2011 09:56:17 PM 979 Views
My problem with aSoIaF... - 20/12/2011 05:16:42 AM 973 Views
The Rhoynish influence pretty much ends in Dorne. - 20/12/2011 06:15:54 AM 953 Views
And that makes sense? - 20/12/2011 08:54:16 AM 1042 Views
Yes and no. - 20/12/2011 03:10:54 PM 1068 Views
Re: Yes and no. - 26/12/2011 03:12:01 AM 932 Views
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That's a question for each reader to answer then. - 20/12/2011 03:20:39 PM 783 Views
You appear to have not understood my point. - 20/12/2011 05:59:07 PM 833 Views
Re: There has to be something more, though. - 26/12/2011 03:14:04 AM 851 Views
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That's my general take as well - 20/12/2011 07:15:51 AM 867 Views
I like violence *NM* - 20/12/2011 07:51:39 PM 370 Views
Re: Violence, rape, and agency in the "gritty fantasies" - 25/12/2011 11:52:41 PM 1063 Views

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