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Ah, Cannoli. I've missed you. badassashaman Send a noteboard - 26/07/2011 09:35:00 PM
Let me first just say that yes. I read the books. And well before there was any talk of a TV series. I haven't quite figured out the quote stuff yet, so I'll just respond all together.

- Stannis as a King was clearly a decision for war - I'm not saying Ned wanted war, or even that he clearly chose it. However, he had Renly offering him his hundred swords from the moment of Robert's death (though I don't remember Renly offering to be king in the books) and he knew the Lannisters were not packing up and leaving King's Landing at that point. Does Ned realize the Lannisters will make a play for the throne? No. At least, not at first. He ponders Cersei's inaction for a bit, then he does one (1!) thing to cover his ass, gets littlefinger to buy out the guard. I have never thought Littlefinger was looking out for the best interests of everyone, but even knew Stannis was a bad choice. He betrayed Ned because Ned's choice didn't serve the long-term plans that he had, and I think we can all agree that Littlefinger knows how to look at things in the long term.

- I recall some reference to Ned going about the business of being Hand in GoT, hearing grievances, etc. but it seems like the biggest job of the Hand is to keep stuff in check, stop the King from getting himself killed, and overall keep the King's peace. Ned failed in all three. Why? Not because he was dishonorable, I have never thought that, but because he was short-sighted. Jon Arryn did it for like 20 years. And even when he found out about Joffrey, he didn't run and tell Cersei. Unfortunately, his wife offed him before he could do anything with the knowledge.

- Examples of Ned being a reactionist: Waiting on Cersei to leave honorably instead of arresting her or booting her out. If he really wanted to be honorable and follow the law, he should have arrested her for treason. Instead he actually believed she would just give up and runaway. That's short-sighted.

Ned waiting on Dany and her kid to come by a more conventional army (which she later does, though well after his death) before he views her as a threat. By the way, it's not absurd to suspect that once Dany started conquering with the Dothraki she would acquire more sophisticated means of waging war, but he was too short sighted to care. I'm not a big fan of preemptive violence, but if an assassination attempt had been successful, the targaryen threat would have been ended for good.

- Ned's desire to go back to WF was not based on the good of the Realm or fighting the Others, it was based on his contempt for court politics and the risks his children were exposed to. He didn't want to the job, that much is made clear from the start.

- I know the intent of Robert's Rebellion was for Robert to take the throne - but there was a period in which Ned could have, if he so desired, made a play for it. Did he ever consider it? no. Because of his honor or because he just had no ambition for it? I say the latter. There's no doubt as to who would have made a better king.

I'm not saying that "honorable" and "short-sighted" are or aren't the same thing. From a pragmatic point of view, Ned's actions didn't help much and ultimately got him and a lot of other people killed.

Doing right in the short-term doesn't always lead to good results in the long-term.
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Ned Stark's downfall wasn't his sense of honor - 25/07/2011 01:32:08 PM 1012 Views
agreed *NM* - 25/07/2011 01:38:48 PM 365 Views
Isn't protecting children a honorable obligation? *NM* - 25/07/2011 02:33:16 PM 301 Views
There are other ways to do that, and kids don't excuse law-breaking - 26/07/2011 03:14:29 AM 678 Views
I disagree - 25/07/2011 07:51:27 PM 880 Views
Doing right is more important than accumulating power - 26/07/2011 04:09:57 AM 883 Views
Sorry folks - 26/07/2011 06:30:37 AM 1729 Views
Ah, Cannoli. I've missed you. - 26/07/2011 09:35:00 PM 892 Views
Shoot again. - 27/07/2011 02:50:59 AM 798 Views
Damnit! - 25/07/2011 11:00:38 PM 736 Views
Re: Damnit! - 26/07/2011 06:32:57 AM 783 Views
I don't to know is the problem. - 26/07/2011 01:16:54 PM 764 Views
No, it was his dishonorable actions. - 26/07/2011 04:19:54 AM 906 Views
I don't see how our opinions on this are all that different.... - 26/07/2011 09:40:08 PM 843 Views
This again...sigh - 31/07/2011 06:29:54 PM 638 Views
Trusting people he had every reason to not trust was his downfall - 31/07/2011 07:34:24 PM 703 Views

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