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Re: Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? aragornital Send a noteboard - 25/07/2011 02:24:07 PM
I'm frequently amused by Cannoli's posts, moralizing about genre fiction, because not only are the books fictitious tales (often written without much care), but they're also set in fictitious worlds where his concepts of morality and ethics may not hold water.

Specifically, if there truly IS a "God of Many Faces" in Martin's world, then Arya's training is not only moral, but highly so. She has taken, in fact, the most moral path of all by serving a god selflessly to implement the will of that god on earth.

The interesting thing is that it seems that the gods of Westeros are the ones that don't exist. No one has ever benefited from worshiping the "Seven" or even the Drowned God. By contrast, the "Old Gods" of the North seem to have actual power, as does R'hllor, the Red God.

Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world, and how does that affect the morality that underpins it?


Sometimes I think all of them are... Sometimes none...
But if the gods are real, the Seven seems are the least real.
There is only one moment I thought may be they were, when they helped Davos.
Chii? Chiiii!
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A Dance with Dragons discussion thread Legolas - 11/07/2011 10:48:23 PM 6241 Views
Okay, first impressions. Basically spoiler-free, I suppose. ironclad - 11/07/2011 11:40:31 PM 1782 Views
I have it! *NM* fionwe1987 - 12/07/2011 05:42:27 AM 972 Views
A general question to get the discussion started: will two more books be enough? RandAllThor - 12/07/2011 02:22:52 PM 1995 Views
A very good question *major spoilers, then* ironclad - 12/07/2011 02:55:05 PM 1974 Views
Oh, come on. If anyone can do it, Martin can. Tom - 15/07/2011 03:48:27 AM 1664 Views
It'll be tight. Werthead - 12/07/2011 04:32:39 PM 1969 Views
What does "resurrection-as-PWWP Jon" mean? Got it - Prince Who Was Promised! Sir Tybalt - 18/08/2011 08:59:44 PM 1866 Views
No but I think 3 will be possible Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:15:02 AM 1792 Views
what is Purple Wedding? *NM* aragornital - 27/07/2011 08:37:04 AM 857 Views
Joffrey and Margaery wedding Roland00 - 27/07/2011 04:26:04 PM 1825 Views
Hero of the book? Werthead - 12/07/2011 10:12:02 PM 2104 Views
Lord Manderly gets my vote. RandAllThor - 12/07/2011 10:41:19 PM 1915 Views
Re: Hero of the book? ironclad - 12/07/2011 10:43:20 PM 1792 Views
Re: Hero of the book? ClubCaved - 12/07/2011 11:50:29 PM 1786 Views
Ohh, so that was what that was about. Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:08:19 PM 1811 Views
That's what I thought too. Jessie - 25/07/2011 01:48:50 AM 1826 Views
Victorian Greyjoy = Hero of the book *NM* Urza - 21/07/2011 06:20:25 AM 1015 Views
Barristan should be renamed as Ser Grandfather, you do not mess with Ser Grandfather *NM* Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:32:09 AM 1013 Views
Asshole of the book? ironclad - 12/07/2011 10:46:10 PM 1987 Views
Agreed. Werthead - 12/07/2011 11:18:07 PM 1929 Views
Seconded. He'd probably make my short list of Assholes of the Series to date. *NM* RandAllThor - 12/07/2011 11:25:04 PM 911 Views
Yeah, little doubt there. Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:09:53 PM 1777 Views
Seriously... Urza - 18/07/2011 03:07:47 AM 1745 Views
Daenerys Targaryen & lifetime achievement award to Lord Rickard Stark Cannoli - 17/08/2011 12:38:40 AM 1691 Views
Idiot of the book. Werthead - 12/07/2011 11:21:51 PM 2025 Views
lol yep, definitely *NM* ironclad - 13/07/2011 08:12:42 AM 955 Views
Re: Idiot of the book. Zaphod - 17/07/2011 12:42:20 AM 1870 Views
I think readers are being too hard on Quentyn, If anything I think Doran derserves more mocking. Libby - 17/07/2011 01:09:35 AM 2194 Views
Wait... no she doesn't! fionwe1987 - 17/07/2011 01:29:52 AM 1791 Views
She thinks both Werthead - 18/07/2011 12:22:59 AM 1707 Views
So... Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:18:24 PM 1744 Views
No, it's him. Werthead - 18/07/2011 12:25:33 AM 1736 Views
Is there any hot sex scenes? I won't be able to read it for a while *NM* Dark Knight - 13/07/2011 02:35:49 PM 1051 Views
One or two, but not all that long ones *NM* ironclad - 13/07/2011 02:57:12 PM 1007 Views
Great Ending ClubCaved - 14/07/2011 01:21:53 AM 2032 Views
Really? ironclad - 14/07/2011 09:36:01 AM 1946 Views
Re: Really? Werthead - 14/07/2011 09:38:34 AM 1638 Views
Re: Great Ending samgreenaway - 18/07/2011 02:05:00 AM 1757 Views
YES! Larry - 14/07/2011 02:38:48 AM 1602 Views
Sorry for the n00b reply, sentiments still apply Stephen - 16/07/2011 07:27:43 PM 1750 Views
Re: Sorry for the n00b reply, sentiments still apply Zaphod - 17/07/2011 12:45:52 AM 1702 Views
I don't know what to think... (spoiler) aragornital - 14/07/2011 08:59:39 AM 1945 Views
Probably not. Werthead - 14/07/2011 09:19:03 AM 1942 Views
Re: Probably not. aragornital - 14/07/2011 03:57:55 PM 1769 Views
I think the two are mixed up. Werthead - 14/07/2011 11:23:06 PM 1845 Views
Re: I think the two are mixed up. samgreenaway - 18/07/2011 02:10:29 AM 1686 Views
What made least sense for me as far as that is concerned... ironclad - 14/07/2011 11:51:20 AM 1815 Views
They didn't. Werthead - 14/07/2011 11:24:53 PM 1864 Views
I see ironclad - 15/07/2011 08:28:09 AM 1777 Views
Didn't Jon just announced Roland00 - 26/07/2011 02:51:07 AM 1746 Views
Something I totally missed first time through Werthead - 14/07/2011 09:40:33 AM 2131 Views
Re: Something I totally missed first time through Cannoli - 16/07/2011 01:24:23 AM 2053 Views
Yep, that's what he said/thought A Deathwatch Guard - 17/07/2011 05:02:32 AM 1865 Views
Re: Something I totally missed first time through Jessie - 23/07/2011 04:14:38 PM 1710 Views
Well that brings new meaning Roland00 - 26/07/2011 02:53:18 AM 1636 Views
I'm still not fully done, but about the Reek chapters... fionwe1987 - 14/07/2011 04:05:29 PM 1869 Views
Agreed ironclad - 14/07/2011 06:18:15 PM 1883 Views
There's another... fionwe1987 - 14/07/2011 07:16:11 PM 1685 Views
There's that... Legolas - 17/07/2011 01:12:33 AM 1730 Views
It's worse than that... fionwe1987 - 17/07/2011 01:26:50 AM 1773 Views
Torture is wrong, and those chapters kinda proved it. *NM* Roland00 - 26/07/2011 02:53:55 AM 948 Views
GRRM completely shit the bed on Jon's arc within this book. That's the truth. Libby - 16/07/2011 12:51:08 AM 1906 Views
Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) Variant - 16/07/2011 08:11:30 AM 1873 Views
Re: Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) Zaphod - 17/07/2011 01:02:10 AM 1799 Views
Personally, I felt 'A Feast for Crows' was not only better written but more condensed. Libby - 17/07/2011 11:15:58 AM 1851 Views
Summed up like that there is no way to disagree with what you said ironclad - 17/07/2011 11:33:01 AM 1839 Views
You put words to my thoughts exactly. Sir Tybalt - 18/08/2011 09:17:09 PM 1718 Views
It should be re-titled A Jump with Sharks Tom - 17/07/2011 06:00:37 PM 1912 Views
Publishers are more interested in the bottom line. Werthead - 18/07/2011 12:31:56 AM 1697 Views
Sadly, I am likely overestimating the intelligence of the readers. Tom - 18/07/2011 03:05:12 AM 1916 Views
I felt bummed by Sanderson's new series. everynametaken - 18/07/2011 05:25:09 AM 1770 Views
I bought that book but have yet to read it. Tom - 18/07/2011 01:09:15 PM 1703 Views
Re: I bought that book but have yet to read it. Zach - 20/07/2011 06:45:46 AM 1726 Views
You might like this quote from House of Leaves by Mark Z Danielewski. heartbreak - 11/08/2011 03:42:05 PM 1795 Views
I'm afraid I have to agree with what seems to be the majority opinion... Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:35:47 PM 1860 Views
And on a different note entirely: is it me, or did the book need more proofreading? Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:39:15 PM 1759 Views
Re: And on a different note entirely: is it me, or did the book need more proofreading? samgreenaway - 18/07/2011 02:17:41 AM 1893 Views
Yeah, I agree. Stephen - 18/07/2011 05:59:58 PM 1799 Views
The book really shows it is AFFC part 2 Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:00:07 AM 1769 Views
No doubt, much like readers would've been more forgiving of aFfC if it'd been two years after SoS. Legolas - 26/07/2011 11:28:43 PM 1807 Views
Am I The Only One In Love With Arya's Chapters? *spoilers maybe* samgreenaway - 18/07/2011 02:22:00 AM 1797 Views
I enjoyed them, very solid chapters. Libby - 18/07/2011 12:50:43 PM 1814 Views
Unlike others, I won't start a separate thread to express my thoughts Larry - 19/07/2011 11:21:17 AM 1936 Views
Yeah, I wished there was a way to move them in here! ironclad - 19/07/2011 01:42:51 PM 1677 Views
Me too... but going and complaining about them seems so lame, too. Legolas - 19/07/2011 07:34:47 PM 1681 Views
I agree with Jens, good balanced review. *NM* Legolas - 19/07/2011 07:50:13 PM 934 Views
I think you let him off too easily. Tom - 20/07/2011 04:19:07 AM 1826 Views
It might be that I expected even more of a longeur than what happened Larry - 20/07/2011 05:24:50 PM 1769 Views
Your review is a little too generous (in my opinion) Libby - 20/07/2011 06:57:45 AM 1990 Views
I find myself both depressed and let down... Zach - 20/07/2011 06:37:16 AM 2100 Views
Am I the only one who really likes... ironclad - 20/07/2011 06:04:00 PM 1881 Views
yeh, he is nice... *NM* aragornital - 20/07/2011 06:20:13 PM 927 Views
Davos is probably my favourite Stephen - 20/07/2011 09:51:03 PM 1610 Views
I have to disagree in regards to Penny, she's a plot device and an annoying one at that. Variant - 21/07/2011 01:15:33 AM 1924 Views
Re: I have to disagree in regards to Penny, she's a plot device and an annoying one at that. Timthetrolloc - 21/07/2011 09:33:00 AM 1739 Views
The six bodies fired by the trebuchet Stephen - 20/07/2011 10:36:16 PM 1780 Views
Yes, I was confused by that too. Legolas - 20/07/2011 10:53:35 PM 1696 Views
Probably pale mare victims. Seige warfare via plague Urza - 20/07/2011 11:23:10 PM 1749 Views
Yes, I considered that as well... Legolas - 20/07/2011 11:48:32 PM 1722 Views
Have Quentyn's two mates already been sent off a this point? ironclad - 21/07/2011 02:03:15 PM 1767 Views
That could be it. *NM* Stephen - 21/07/2011 01:43:16 PM 841 Views
It's not six bodies, it's six trebuchets throwing corpses instead of stones DomA - 27/07/2011 01:03:51 AM 1833 Views
That's how I read it as well. Six trebuchets opening up. *NM* Michael - 11/08/2011 12:19:09 PM 925 Views
Stannis ironclad - 21/07/2011 08:43:40 AM 1735 Views
It's entirely possible Stannis was killed Tom - 21/07/2011 02:09:10 PM 1823 Views
I highly doubt he's dead A Deathwatch Guard - 21/07/2011 07:29:59 PM 1765 Views
The bluff makes the most sense: if the Boltons beat Stannis, why does he ask for Theon & Jeyne? Cannoli - 22/07/2011 12:01:30 AM 1832 Views
Yeah... Urza - 22/07/2011 12:27:53 AM 1724 Views
The letter sounded like the ravings of a psychopath loosing control DomA - 27/07/2011 02:56:21 AM 1875 Views
The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up. Libby - 21/07/2011 10:43:43 PM 1834 Views
Re: The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up. Werthead - 22/07/2011 05:42:13 PM 1902 Views
Alternatively.. fionwe1987 - 22/07/2011 09:13:46 PM 1732 Views
Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? Tom - 22/07/2011 04:32:39 PM 1766 Views
None of them. Werthead - 22/07/2011 06:25:19 PM 1703 Views
Is that personal opinion or based on something Martin said? *NM* Tom - 22/07/2011 06:37:57 PM 932 Views
Opinion Werthead - 22/07/2011 07:43:16 PM 1731 Views
Regardless of whether or not they actually get involved, their existence (or not) is signficant. Tom - 23/07/2011 02:17:48 AM 1586 Views
I think there are some god's, just given different names. Same with the magic. fionwe1987 - 22/07/2011 09:24:51 PM 1704 Views
Lose the apostrophe in the subject line. Then: on what basis do you assume this? Tom - 23/07/2011 02:28:49 AM 1778 Views
You might want to stop wasting time correcting others typos. As for the gods... fionwe1987 - 23/07/2011 04:53:59 AM 1632 Views
You might want to stop making them. Particularly glaring ones like that. Tom - 23/07/2011 05:01:03 AM 1811 Views
A typo can't be "glaring"... fionwe1987 - 23/07/2011 08:08:51 AM 1688 Views
Sure it can. Glaring: conspicuous or obvious. Tom - 23/07/2011 03:52:57 PM 1704 Views
Morality stems from god? A Deathwatch Guard - 22/07/2011 10:47:59 PM 1698 Views
Of course it does Tom - 23/07/2011 02:26:50 AM 1689 Views
On second thought, let's address the issue directly. Tom - 23/07/2011 05:14:59 AM 1773 Views
Perhaps... A Deathwatch Guard - 24/07/2011 07:03:24 PM 1716 Views
Its simple... Urza - 24/07/2011 07:37:11 PM 1703 Views
I disagree... fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 04:10:04 AM 1790 Views
Bullshit. Tom - 25/07/2011 05:44:41 AM 1657 Views
Re: Bullshit. fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 06:27:09 AM 1570 Views
The Seven probably has more power and influence than any other religion though. Werthead - 25/07/2011 07:51:59 PM 1607 Views
In Westeros, but I always got the feeling the Free Cities and other places didn't much care for them A Deathwatch Guard - 26/07/2011 10:53:45 PM 1717 Views
Westeros is the biggest coherent civilisation in the ASoIaF world. Werthead - 27/07/2011 12:56:21 AM 1758 Views
Some thoughts... fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 04:54:05 AM 1680 Views
It's not an objective morality. Tom - 25/07/2011 05:41:33 AM 1677 Views
Its not that simple... fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 06:21:39 AM 1731 Views
I don't disagree with most of what you said. I just reach a different conclusion. Tom - 25/07/2011 01:57:31 PM 1667 Views
Well... fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 05:02:45 PM 1679 Views
How then do you deal with the Euthyphro dilemma? Tim - 16/08/2011 01:43:18 PM 1548 Views
Re: Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? aragornital - 25/07/2011 02:24:07 PM 1640 Views
Whats the best new POV Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:14:05 AM 1725 Views
Barristan Werthead - 26/07/2011 12:23:20 PM 1683 Views
Didn't Aeron "Damphair" Greyjoy also only have 2 POVs Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:56:57 PM 1759 Views
Agreed. *NM* Legolas - 26/07/2011 11:33:11 PM 965 Views
thirded. Jessie - 27/07/2011 04:16:26 PM 1551 Views
Absolutely *NM* ironclad - 29/07/2011 02:31:54 AM 1014 Views
Things you missed till they were pointed out via others or via a reread Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:23:53 AM 1876 Views
A bit. Werthead - 26/07/2011 12:32:32 PM 1842 Views
Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:46:54 PM 1778 Views
Re: Werthead - 27/07/2011 12:43:43 AM 1714 Views
Martin doesn't have to do anything Roland00 - 27/07/2011 01:33:36 AM 1784 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything DomA - 27/07/2011 04:38:19 AM 1684 Views
The crone who prophesied the stallion who mounts the world saw the stallions face Roland00 - 27/07/2011 05:13:28 AM 1809 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything aragornital - 27/07/2011 08:58:55 AM 1611 Views
Re: DomA - 27/07/2011 04:27:18 AM 1798 Views
I like your theory. Jessie - 27/07/2011 04:35:22 PM 1806 Views
Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. Legolas - 26/07/2011 11:32:18 PM 1793 Views
Re: Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. Roland00 - 27/07/2011 02:00:42 AM 1695 Views
Eh? Elaine - 29/07/2011 04:44:17 PM 1804 Views
This is complicated. Werthead - 31/07/2011 10:43:15 PM 2015 Views
Wait...a woman crowned for beauty was the victorious mystery knight? Tom - 01/08/2011 03:00:49 AM 1708 Views
It is believed the Knight of the Laughing Tree is one of two people Roland00 - 01/08/2011 04:47:21 AM 1746 Views
Yup. Werthead - 02/08/2011 12:03:26 AM 1650 Views
Also... fionwe1987 - 02/08/2011 07:17:43 AM 1741 Views
And yet, my huge brain figures it out Elaine - 04/08/2011 04:20:06 PM 1710 Views
I've read this scene yesterday and I missed this... aragornital - 02/08/2011 07:55:35 AM 1739 Views
Allow me Elaine - 05/08/2011 02:14:15 PM 1593 Views
thanks *NM* aragornital - 07/08/2011 07:28:21 AM 915 Views
I thought this was pretty clear HousealThor - 07/08/2011 05:18:54 PM 1610 Views
Hizdahr a Harpy? Innocent or Not? Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:36:56 AM 2014 Views
Interesting idea. Werthead - 26/07/2011 12:25:11 PM 1821 Views
Re: Interesting idea. Jessie - 27/07/2011 04:25:02 PM 1740 Views
What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? Roland00 - 26/07/2011 04:13:27 PM 1733 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? Werthead - 27/07/2011 12:49:52 AM 1939 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? DomA - 27/07/2011 03:49:18 AM 1846 Views
Re: A Dance with Dragons discussion thread jwk - 29/07/2011 01:42:57 AM 1856 Views
Okay. I suck. jwk - 29/07/2011 01:50:56 AM 1653 Views
Let me rephrase that... jwk - 29/07/2011 01:54:07 AM 1637 Views
Jon Snow is definitely Azor Ahai. Kotagg - 29/07/2011 07:31:17 PM 2245 Views
Hmm ironclad - 31/07/2011 01:52:03 PM 2010 Views
you are correct Jim - 31/07/2011 11:08:39 PM 1712 Views
Yup. Werthead - 31/07/2011 10:49:34 PM 1568 Views
But Shireen is a dragon... fionwe1987 - 01/08/2011 12:22:16 AM 1753 Views
I'm uncertain about that Larry - 01/08/2011 05:35:18 AM 1716 Views
True, but I wouldn't read too much into that. Werthead - 01/08/2011 11:42:29 PM 1990 Views
Where did he say that? fionwe1987 - 02/08/2011 07:18:39 AM 1844 Views
In interviews Werthead - 02/08/2011 02:21:28 PM 1825 Views
A little thought about Jon... aragornital - 02/08/2011 08:02:34 AM 1877 Views
Excellent point. Werthead - 02/08/2011 02:22:22 PM 1798 Views
Am I the only one who thinks... The Doctor - 09/08/2011 05:16:46 PM 1824 Views
I think Martin's gonna stick to Bran being the only one who does that ironclad - 10/08/2011 09:25:12 AM 1745 Views
It's possible, the problem is Jon's warging skill isn't all that well developed. Libby - 10/08/2011 10:53:32 PM 1719 Views
Anyone have any thoughts as to the purpose of Arya's storyline? Chas - 14/08/2011 06:28:09 PM 1727 Views
She's being trained as an assassin, so the question is who is she going to kill? Werthead - 16/08/2011 01:43:12 AM 1661 Views
Jon? Sir Tybalt - 18/08/2011 09:59:03 PM 1700 Views
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