Books Messageboard: I'd like to throw that point in Stannis' face. by Cannoli

Back to Messageboard

Post New Thread

Help

Stats

Rules

I'd like to throw that point in Stannis' face. Cannoli Send a noteboard - 21/07/2011 12:02:42 AM

Daenerys is nothing like Rand, primarily because Rand does everything that he does because of prophecy. He doesn't conquer nations because he wants to, and he doesn't even channel by choice. Instead he was forced into that position, and simply tries to do the best job he can in order to defeat the Dark One.

Daenerys does not know of any prophecies concerning herself, she is motivated simply by the belief that she is the rightful queen of Westeros, and needs to conquer it anew, and take it back from the "Usurper". But how is this motivation anything other than a convenient (and hypocritical) excuse? Westeros does not belong to the Targaryans. They conquered it 400 years ago, defeating the various rulers that lived there at the time. Those rulers had in turn taken it from the First Men, and the First Men had initially taken it from the Children of the Forest. Each group conquered the previous one and took Westeros from it, following the simple rule of "might makes right". Therefore, Robert isn't an usurper any more than Aegon was. He simply defeated the current rulers and took it from them.

I really like Stannis, but his insisting on his due as the rightful king is really grating in the North. When you get right down to it, his claim is no different than Tommens. Both are the younger brothers of usurpers who died childless (with a problematic rival sibling claimant whose claim was supported by their boyfriends' southern families)

I would have no problem with Daenerys going and reconquering Westeros because she wants her home back, or wants to be a queen, etc. The only problem I have with her is that she uses hypocritical excuses to justify it. Furthermore, by conquering and usurping the throne of Meereen, Daenerys has become a usurper just like Robert, and yet continues to believe that she has the moral high ground against him and his "dogs".

Yes, dogs they are! The treacherous curs have the audacity to fight back when someone demands their murder for the crime of loving his son's vicitm!

As for what you said about Daenery's "justice" it is a very skewed form of it. She conquers cities and kills their rulers and frees their slaves. This isn't a bad thing by itself, since slavery is a bad thing, so stopping it is good. But she fails to consider why slavery existed in those cities to begin with, and what would happen once it was gone. She didn't consider that slaves are the only exports the slave cities have, and that without them to sell they would starve and die out. Instead, she followed her sense of "justice"

More like imposing her own moral values on others. How is what she did any different than imposing sharia law?

and did an act of good that led to consequences worse than the initial evil. Going even further, she chose not to stop people from following her, despite knowing that she had no way of feeding or caring for them, and knowing that she would have a long journey ahead of her. So not only did she willingly allow people to follow her to what could very likely be their deaths, she failed to even prioritize her own goals and objectives, something that a queen cannot do. If she continues to exhibit the same lack of leadership ability in Westeros, she'll simply ruin it as well as Cersei and Robert did.

Not to mention her assumption of responsibility for her freedmen strongly suggests she has no firm grasp of the true essence of the concept of 'freedom.' She's a child who only wants the good and doesn't have the stones to take the bad that goes along with it. Freedom means nothing more and nothing less than self-sufficiency. Danerys' "children" are no more free in their current life than before. The nature of their slavery has simply changed to suit their own wishes. For all the good it will do them in the long term.

By the way, as of the last book, with the two clergymen's descriptions of their experience of military service kind of blows away the arguments Dany made about her brother & his army of "free men" on the Trident. She is NOT "better" than the Ghiscari by her association with the Targaryens of "free" Westeros.

And speaking of comparisons making Dany look bad, how could anyone take her whining about her new marriage seriously in the same book where we get a glimpse of what Jeyne Poole was enduring?

And to give another reason for why I dislike her, and also why Daenerys is nothing like Rand, there is her relationship with Daario. She understands that he is a sellsword, and therefore neither honorable or caring, yet she bangs him anyway, and toward the middle and end of the book even starts having feelings of something like love for him, as opposed to merely lust. And she starts seeing him as much more trustworthy than he actually is. These are not things that any decent queen - or any sort of ruler - should be doing. Since you compared her to Rand, let me point out the Daario equivalent in Wheel of Time. That person is Berelain, who tried to seduce Rand.

You're being unkind to Berelain. She was trying to seduce him because her warped and desperate situation made her think that was the only way to deal with a man with power over her, and she was doing it for the good of her country. Daario was indulging his lust, nothing more. The best WoT analog I can think of for him is Else Grinwell, whose interest in Rand was purely self-indulgent.

And he turned her down, despite her being one of the most beautiful women in the world. So while Daenerys can't even think straight with her beloved Daario, Rand stayed in control of himself.

Btw, while Daenerys is kind to her followers, she has no reason not to be. The only reason Rand started being an asshole to people is because he wished to protect them, since he has the Dark One constantly after him. Since Daenerys doesn't have to fear any such thing, she has no reason to push away her companions, so your comparison is moot.

Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*

Reply to message

Just finished Dance with Dragons - My Thoughts (SPOILERS) CatherineSedai - 19/07/2011 05:48:48 AM 1506 Views

There IS News About Rickon (spoiler) ClubCaved - 19/07/2011 03:15:35 PM 975 Views

Re: There IS News About Rickon (spoiler) CatherineSedai - 19/07/2011 06:50:34 PM 983 Views

Re: There IS News About Rickon (spoiler) Zaphod - 19/07/2011 09:34:01 PM 976 Views

I thought that too, but it doesn't fit. Cannoli - 19/07/2011 09:57:29 PM 1127 Views

From what I recall, Asha and Rickon headed south A Deathwatch Guard - 19/07/2011 11:32:25 PM 908 Views

Isn't her name is Osha? *NM* aragornital - 20/07/2011 07:42:00 AM 440 Views

Yes Osha is the Wildling, Asha is the Kraken *NM* CatherineSedai - 21/07/2011 03:08:05 AM 452 Views

Funny how people can like a book for completely opposite reasons. Cannoli - 19/07/2011 11:00:12 PM 1145 Views

Lol

I love this post. A Deathwatch Guard - 19/07/2011 11:29:05 PM 1030 Views

Actually, CatherineSedai - 20/07/2011 04:57:17 AM 996 Views

Good post! I agree with every word! *NM* aragornital - 20/07/2011 07:57:28 AM 432 Views

Thanks

*NM* CatherineSedai - 21/07/2011 03:36:04 AM 406 Views

No... they're really not. A Deathwatch Guard - 20/07/2011 09:46:56 PM 1068 Views

I'd like to throw that point in Stannis' face. Cannoli - 21/07/2011 12:02:42 AM 981 Views

Re: Funny how people can like a book for completely opposite reasons. CatherineSedai - 20/07/2011 06:11:10 AM 1137 Views

Are you INSANE? Do you know NOTHING about what prostitution entails? Cannoli - 21/07/2011 01:09:26 AM 1169 Views

I don't want to debate ethics with you, but paying a whore isn't rape. CatherineSedai - 21/07/2011 03:31:42 AM 974 Views

*NM* *NM* CatherineSedai - 21/07/2011 04:37:35 AM 506 Views

Dear Pot, I'm not the only black one around here. Love, Kettle Cannoli - 26/07/2011 02:33:40 AM 1125 Views

I'm starting to think you have a powerful women complex... aragornital - 20/07/2011 07:56:32 AM 911 Views

I have the same issues with powerful men, but stupid writers don't give them a pass. Cannoli - 21/07/2011 01:15:57 AM 963 Views

I have to take Cannoli's side here Camilla - 01/08/2011 12:26:51 PM 862 Views

I don't know, may be because it is their books you read... *NM* aragornital - 02/08/2011 08:02:38 PM 422 Views

It does not follow that they have the power over interpretation, and certainly not evaluation. *NM* Camilla - 02/08/2011 08:19:50 PM 404 Views

Back to Messageboard

Post New Thread

Help

Stats

Rules

Reply to Message

Subject

Formatting

Smiley Codes

Body

<quote id="217258">
<quote>Daenerys is nothing like Rand, primarily because Rand does everything that he does because of prophecy. He doesn't conquer nations because he wants to, and he doesn't even channel by choice. Instead he was forced into that position, and simply tries to do the best job he can in order to defeat the Dark One.

Daenerys does not know of any prophecies concerning herself, she is motivated simply by the belief that she is the rightful queen of Westeros, and needs to conquer it anew, and take it back from the "Usurper". But how is this motivation anything other than a convenient (and hypocritical) excuse? Westeros does not belong to the Targaryans. They conquered it 400 years ago, defeating the various rulers that lived there at the time. Those rulers had in turn taken it from the First Men, and the First Men had initially taken it from the Children of the Forest. Each group conquered the previous one and took Westeros from it, following the simple rule of "might makes right". Therefore, Robert isn't an usurper any more than Aegon was. He simply defeated the current rulers and took it from them. </quote>

I really like Stannis, but his insisting on his due as the rightful king is really grating in the North.  When you get right down to it, his claim is no different than Tommens.  Both are the younger brothers of usurpers who died childless (with a problematic rival sibling claimant whose claim was supported by their boyfriends' southern families)

<quote>I would have no problem with Daenerys going and reconquering Westeros because she wants her home back, or wants to be a queen, etc. The only problem I have with her is that she uses hypocritical excuses to justify it. Furthermore, by conquering and usurping the throne of Meereen, Daenerys has become a usurper just like Robert, and yet continues to believe that she has the moral high ground against him and his "dogs". </quote> Yes, dogs they are!  The treacherous curs have the audacity to fight back when someone demands their murder for the crime of loving his son's vicitm!

<quote>As for what you said about Daenery's "justice" it is a very skewed form of it. She conquers cities and kills their rulers and frees their slaves. This isn't a bad thing by itself, since slavery is a bad thing, so stopping it is good. But she fails to consider why slavery existed in those cities to begin with, and what would happen once it was gone. She didn't consider that slaves are the only exports the slave cities have, and that without them to sell they would starve and die out. Instead, she followed her sense of "justice" </quote>
More like imposing her own moral values on others.  How is what she did any different than imposing sharia law?  
<quote>and did an act of good that led to consequences worse than the initial evil. Going even further, she chose not to stop people from following her, despite knowing that she had no way of feeding or caring for them, and knowing that she would have a long journey ahead of her. So not only did she willingly allow people to follow her to what could very likely be their deaths, she failed to even prioritize her own goals and objectives, something that a queen cannot do. If she continues to exhibit the same lack of leadership ability in Westeros, she'll simply ruin it as well as Cersei and Robert did.</quote> Not to mention her assumption of responsibility for her freedmen strongly suggests she has no firm grasp of the true essence of the concept of 'freedom.'  She's a child who only wants the good and doesn't have the stones to take the bad that goes along with it.  Freedom means nothing more and nothing less than self-sufficiency.  Danerys' "children" are no more free in their current life than before.  The nature of their slavery has simply changed to suit their own wishes. For all the good it will do them in the long term.

By the way, as of the last book, with the two clergymen's descriptions of their experience of military service kind of blows away the arguments Dany made about her brother & his army of "free men" on the Trident.  She is NOT "better" than the Ghiscari by her association with the Targaryens of "free" Westeros.

And speaking of comparisons making Dany look bad, how could anyone take her whining about her new marriage seriously in the same book where we get a glimpse of what Jeyne Poole was enduring?

<quote>And to give another reason for why I dislike her, and also why Daenerys is nothing like Rand, there is her relationship with Daario. She understands that he is a sellsword, and therefore neither honorable or caring, yet she bangs him anyway, and toward the middle and end of the book even starts having feelings of something like love for him, as opposed to merely lust. And she starts seeing him as much more trustworthy than he actually is. These are not things that any decent queen - or any sort of ruler - should be doing. Since you compared her to Rand, let me point out the Daario equivalent in Wheel of Time. That person is Berelain, who tried to seduce Rand.</quote> You're being unkind to Berelain.  She was trying to seduce him because her warped and desperate situation made her think that was the only way to deal with a man with power over her, and she was doing it for the good of her country.  Daario was indulging his lust, nothing more.  The best WoT analog I can think of for him is Else Grinwell, whose interest in Rand was purely self-indulgent.

<quote>And he turned her down, despite her being one of the most beautiful women in the world. So while Daenerys can't even think straight with her beloved Daario, Rand stayed in control of himself.

Btw, while Daenerys is kind to her followers, she has no reason not to be. The only reason Rand started being an asshole to people is because he wished to protect them, since he has the Dark One constantly after him. Since Daenerys doesn't have to fear any such thing, she has no reason to push away her companions, so your comparison is moot. </quote>
</quote>

Link title

Link url

Send notification emails?

Username

Password