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Re: very interesting Cannoli Send a noteboard - 17/07/2011 03:01:06 AM


Agree to the latter, same game, although visiting the same ruse twice in the course of 5000 pages is somewhat forgivable, in my opinion. As for Mormont's name, it seemed to me as I was reading it that Martin was just trying to write it as Tyrion thought it, talking to 'the knight' until he actually had an inner dialogue about who 'the knight' obviously was, then switched his inner monologue to start using his name.
Yes but there was no point where he recognized or expressed his realization of the identity of the knight. Tyrion had no "aha" moment that would explain his shift. Sloppy editing would be my bet.


I'm not sure I understand. Are you complaining that he hasn't killed off enough POV characters in the last 2 books? Because other than Ned and Cat (who's still sort of alive, I guess) he hasn't killed off any before that, so I wouldn't necessarily expect that from his previous work, nor be angry at him if I didn't see enough of that. His reputation is based on his fans' reactions to his writing more than his writing.
And my point was that reaction should change. Particularly with the added press of the TV show, it is getting a little tiresome hearing people rhapsodize about how "No character is safe! Ned's death puts you on notice that Martin is not going to be predictable." Hence my reference to the internet. Martin is WAY predictable, you just need to get a feel for his rhythm, and just about everyone who makes it into a second book or is not a -logue PoV character is safe.

Or are you complaining (perhaps just 'noting' would be a more appropriate description of what you're saying) that not enough 'major' characters have been killed? Because, I mean, Kevan Lannister and Pycelle got offed right at the end, and they've played pretty majorly in the whole series. I accept that it can't always be as full of carnage as the second half of a Storm of Swords. But that's one of the things I enjoy about Martin's writing, is that I'm never really sure what is going on or what to believe. Sure, I agree with your main point, the cliffhanger POV's are kind of tired - of course Jon Snow's not dead, of course Tyrion wasn't going to drown when the weird grayscale guys got him, of course Dany isn't going to die any time soon. But, I don't really know about anyone else... like what the hell is going to happen to Jaime? They seem to have built his character up to some purpose, so it'd be weird if they predictably killed him as all signs seem to point to, but I thought they'd do more with Sandor Clegane than save him from death at Dondarrion's hands only to have him die months later after carting Arya around to little effect,
Read again the chapter where Brienne learns of his death, and pay attention to the description of the brother digging the grave in that same chapter. He's not dead. Even if he does stay out of things from now on, however, I think he has still fulfilled a purpose in illustrating the need for a cause and meaning, and how you need a reason to fight, rather than simply being good at it. Kind of an interesting arc to accompany Arya shortly before she goes off to become an assassin with her teacher constantly reiterating that she must forego all those reasons and causes and make herself into a neutral instrument of death. That's more or less what Sandor was - he struck and killed as his masters bid, while raging against the hypocrisy and futility of his profession, as he saw it.

or with Gregor for that matter, rather than have him actually die of the poison and become some weird zombie warrior. Or Stannis, I'm really not sure what's going on there, as the rest of the Bastard's letter rang true, but it wouldn't make sense for the rest of it, ie. Theon and 'Arya' were with Stannis too, but obviously the Bastard doesn't have them. It's intriguing, and I'm curious to see the real story next book.
Probably a ploy by Ramsay to get his captives back by bluff.

Does the 'i doubt it' mean you think Jon's actually dead? I mean, all them stabbies are hard to overcome, but we need someone to be the narrator at the Wall, much less one head of the dragon...
No, I meant that I doubted he was dead. Badly phrased.



Why are you singling out Arya? Aren't most POV characters 'evil' by that token?
She is not 'evil' she IS evil. And, yes lots of them are, but they are seem as morally ambiguous at best. Not many are on the level of an eager applicant to a cult of hired assassins who pride themselves on their indifference to any moral issues or reasons for their killings.




Okay, a few things:

- yeah I'm convinced that 'Aegon' is a fake, not least because Quaithe calls him the 'mummer's dragon'... unless that literally refers to the fact that he's the Targaryen that is controlled by the former mummer Varys. Even so, him being the real Aegon is far too convenient to be introduced at this point without any prior foreshadowing. Although it makes sense that things hidden deeply from everyone in Westeros could possibly be hidden from readers, this just seems too out of left field for me not to be incredibly doubtful. Perhaps Aegon comes from the same bastard brood of Aurane Waters.

- As for the question of 'why bother with Dany if you're Varys', it might make a bit of sense if you consider Aegon a fake. If Dany is the child of prophecy that's going to rebirth the dragons (which we know has been speculated about, through what Maester Aemon said about his and Rhaegar's speculation), and you have some fake Aegon who is most definitely NOT going to reawaken dragons, what would you do if you were Varys? Of all the garbage that's come out of Varys' mouth in the series, what rings most true to me is that he wants what's best for the realm. So, if you have a child of prophecy that you're bound to support that has all of the above mentioned problems, how do you temper that? Marry her to a creature of your own making, who is shaped to be someone who serves the realm well, and more importantly is ostensibly the one with the better claim to the rulership of Westeros. That way, you get the dragons, the Targaryen, and the most power with the right guy. Of course, that requires Varys et al to have guessed that Viserys would die, which is a problem with the whole theory...
Yes. Also, there is no indication that Varys is after anything other than restoring the one House that could truly unify the realm. His goals are purely political. Also his confession to Tyrion about his hatred of magic rang a little too true for me to accept that he's operating on that prophecy.

- I don't think the dragons should be underestimated, or put in a negative light as you have them here. Sure they're homicidal, uncontrollable monsters, but they are also mythical and fear-inducing homicidal uncontrollable monsters that are credited as being the sole reason why the thousands of years of Seven Kingdoms were merged into one kingdom. The fact that she created these double-edged swords of incredible power and is the only real link to even possibly controlling them is more than enough reason to make her 'appealing'.
You're operating under the mistaken assumption that this unification is a good thing. It might be fine for the Riverlands and West and Reach and Stormlands who are so culturally similar that they are effectively one nation, even when they were divided into separate kingdoms, but why should the North, the Iron Isles and Dorne not be allowed to go their own ways? They are different cultures and geographically discrete, so why should they and their people be forced to bow down to a foreign king simply because he has the Westeros equivalent of nukes?

- cute as the comparison is with Buffy, I've never gotten the impression of 'yay! girl power!' from Dany at all. Just terror, pride, compassion, the desires and decision-making powers of a teenage girl figuring things out, etc. Again, if that impression is there I think it's more the fans than the material, personally.
Which brings me back to the same answer I give whenever someone brings up the teenage girl excuse for a character's deplorable behavior - if a teenage girl can't help it, she has no business being put in charge of so much as a Chinese fire drill! I once supervised a store that paid minimum wage, which meant most of our workforce was composed of teenage girls, and you could barely trust them to straighten up the shelves properly. I have no problem accepting the premise of their emotional instability and vapid mentalities. But I also live in a country that sensibly requires its head of state to be twice as old as any teenage girl in order to take office. Fine, Dany can't help herself anymore than Tyrion can help being short, but that means Tyrion doesn't get to play basketball or joust, and it means Danerys should not be allowed to rule squat.

- as far as Dany being a disastrous ruler, for the purposes of the books I feel like she's being 'seasoned' in Mereen somewhat, and reserve ultimate judgement on her rulership until she actually has ruled her rightful kingdom for at least a day.
So she is qualified to rule seven kingdoms because her attempt to rule a single city has been a case of epic fail?! I can see someone won't be applying for the link in his chain that denotes mastery of logic anytime soon.
Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
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very interesting - 17/07/2011 12:16:10 AM 974 Views
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Re: very interesting - 17/07/2011 03:01:06 AM 943 Views
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