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Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) Variant Send a noteboard - 16/07/2011 08:11:30 AM
I understand that Martin couldn't get the 5-year-gap to work, but I really wish he had. If I had to describe AFFC/ADWD in two words, it'd be "forced filler"

It's only so disappointing because the first three books are so tightly plotted. I'm still in awe of those, that manage to pack in half a dozen personal stories in between a large number of political and military conflicts that somehow all relate to one another by the end of the novel. I remember reading Storm and when Stannis shows up at the Wall, thinking "Aha! So that was his purpose in this book!" But it didn't feel cheap or a deus ex machina, because Stannis' personality, motivations, and political situation had all been well set-up, and set-up through the eyes of Davos, who has a compelling personal story as well. It was incredibly efficient plotting, but still a structure that allowed for a lot of character development, world-building, and literary themes. And, despite the novels' massive size, they moved fast. (Remember when Catelyn left Winterfell in one chapter, and in her next chapter, she was in King's Landing? Can you imagine that sort of quick movement in the series at the present?)

But (as Martin has admitted) this is the point in the series where all the characters are farthest apart, geographically and plot-wise. There's not a whole lot of overlap. And so I think Dance fails in its structure. Maybe it was inevitable. But the first three books all had a beginning, middle, and end for each character. There were still cliffhangers (Jaime and Davos in Clash, Arya in Game), but the cliffhangers still felt like a natural ending point. The cliffhangers in Dance don't have that feel.

A lot of people have compared this series to a medieval soap opera. I want to think it's better than that, and I think the first three books are. But Feast and Dance (both of which I enjoyed in their own way) are much more soapish, with characters running in circles, a series of melodramatic cliffhangers, and the sense that any sort of plot resolution has been delayed.

The lack of climax of the Meereenese knot, in my opinion, was probably the biggest disappointment in this book.

It's clear one of the main problems that George had to deal with is that he placed Dany half a world away from many of the characters he wanted her to meet. Thus, the Meereenese knot consisted of somehow getting all these blokes to her without the journey seeming contrived. And yes, this knot is definitely a bitch and a half because of both Dany's location, the logistical and chronological difficulties of GETTING to her location, as well as the large number of people that need to get there all at the right time and the right place and right order.

But this was a problem that he could have avoided by simply having Dany not settle in to "rule" in Meereen in the first place. But that's the kicker - he had to, didn't he? Because we can't have Dany showing up to Westeros too early, we needed those dragons to grow into the nuclear weapons they need to be, and he also needed time to pass for Arya, Bran, and Sansa's storylines to mature. Hence the problem in this aspect of the story with removing the 5 year gap.

In my opinion, it becomes rather painfully obvious that the characters Martin was trying to serve by filling that gap (Brienne, Cersei, Jaime, Dorne, the Iron Islands, etc) simply weren't worthy of it and the price he paid by slowing Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Bran, and Arya down was too high.

I hope things will improve - perhaps when Dany, Tyrion, Barristan and Victarion all start to interact, the plot will grow tighter. I suppose that Jon, Bran, Theon, Asha, and Davos might have an intersection as well. That will help the next books feel more cohesive, and possibly make it easier to craft a novel that feels more like a complete book and less like a serial installment.
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A Dance with Dragons discussion thread - 11/07/2011 10:48:23 PM 6344 Views
Okay, first impressions. Basically spoiler-free, I suppose. - 11/07/2011 11:40:31 PM 1882 Views
I have it! *NM* - 12/07/2011 05:42:27 AM 1007 Views
A general question to get the discussion started: will two more books be enough? - 12/07/2011 02:22:52 PM 2096 Views
A very good question *major spoilers, then* - 12/07/2011 02:55:05 PM 2071 Views
Oh, come on. If anyone can do it, Martin can. - 15/07/2011 03:48:27 AM 1766 Views
It'll be tight. - 12/07/2011 04:32:39 PM 2064 Views
No but I think 3 will be possible - 26/07/2011 03:15:02 AM 1892 Views
what is Purple Wedding? *NM* - 27/07/2011 08:37:04 AM 891 Views
Joffrey and Margaery wedding - 27/07/2011 04:26:04 PM 1913 Views
Hero of the book? - 12/07/2011 10:12:02 PM 2212 Views
Lord Manderly gets my vote. - 12/07/2011 10:41:19 PM 2021 Views
Re: Hero of the book? - 12/07/2011 10:43:20 PM 1877 Views
Re: Hero of the book? - 12/07/2011 11:50:29 PM 1876 Views
Ohh, so that was what that was about. - 17/07/2011 07:08:19 PM 1906 Views
That's what I thought too. - 25/07/2011 01:48:50 AM 1916 Views
Victorian Greyjoy = Hero of the book *NM* - 21/07/2011 06:20:25 AM 1062 Views
Asshole of the book? - 12/07/2011 10:46:10 PM 2080 Views
Agreed. - 12/07/2011 11:18:07 PM 2021 Views
Yeah, little doubt there. - 17/07/2011 07:09:53 PM 1862 Views
Seriously... - 18/07/2011 03:07:47 AM 1840 Views
Daenerys Targaryen & lifetime achievement award to Lord Rickard Stark - 17/08/2011 12:38:40 AM 1779 Views
Idiot of the book. - 12/07/2011 11:21:51 PM 2118 Views
lol yep, definitely *NM* - 13/07/2011 08:12:42 AM 1000 Views
Re: Idiot of the book. - 17/07/2011 12:42:20 AM 1961 Views
Wait... no she doesn't! - 17/07/2011 01:29:52 AM 1888 Views
She thinks both - 18/07/2011 12:22:59 AM 1819 Views
So... - 17/07/2011 07:18:24 PM 1836 Views
No, it's him. - 18/07/2011 12:25:33 AM 1827 Views
Is there any hot sex scenes? I won't be able to read it for a while *NM* - 13/07/2011 02:35:49 PM 1086 Views
One or two, but not all that long ones *NM* - 13/07/2011 02:57:12 PM 1032 Views
Great Ending - 14/07/2011 01:21:53 AM 2122 Views
Really? - 14/07/2011 09:36:01 AM 2041 Views
Re: Really? - 14/07/2011 09:38:34 AM 1696 Views
Re: Great Ending - 18/07/2011 02:05:00 AM 1846 Views
YES! - 14/07/2011 02:38:48 AM 1683 Views
Sorry for the n00b reply, sentiments still apply - 16/07/2011 07:27:43 PM 1845 Views
Re: Sorry for the n00b reply, sentiments still apply - 17/07/2011 12:45:52 AM 1801 Views
I don't know what to think... (spoiler) - 14/07/2011 08:59:39 AM 2040 Views
Probably not. - 14/07/2011 09:19:03 AM 2027 Views
Re: Probably not. - 14/07/2011 03:57:55 PM 1863 Views
I think the two are mixed up. - 14/07/2011 11:23:06 PM 1945 Views
Re: I think the two are mixed up. - 18/07/2011 02:10:29 AM 1780 Views
What made least sense for me as far as that is concerned... - 14/07/2011 11:51:20 AM 1908 Views
They didn't. - 14/07/2011 11:24:53 PM 1957 Views
I see - 15/07/2011 08:28:09 AM 1871 Views
Didn't Jon just announced - 26/07/2011 02:51:07 AM 1830 Views
Something I totally missed first time through - 14/07/2011 09:40:33 AM 2234 Views
Re: Something I totally missed first time through - 16/07/2011 01:24:23 AM 2150 Views
Yep, that's what he said/thought - 17/07/2011 05:02:32 AM 1970 Views
Re: Something I totally missed first time through - 23/07/2011 04:14:38 PM 1818 Views
Well that brings new meaning - 26/07/2011 02:53:18 AM 1736 Views
I'm still not fully done, but about the Reek chapters... - 14/07/2011 04:05:29 PM 1954 Views
Agreed - 14/07/2011 06:18:15 PM 1972 Views
There's another... - 14/07/2011 07:16:11 PM 1773 Views
There's that... - 17/07/2011 01:12:33 AM 1834 Views
It's worse than that... - 17/07/2011 01:26:50 AM 1856 Views
Torture is wrong, and those chapters kinda proved it. *NM* - 26/07/2011 02:53:55 AM 991 Views
Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) - 16/07/2011 08:11:30 AM 1964 Views
Re: Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) - 17/07/2011 01:02:10 AM 1890 Views
You put words to my thoughts exactly. - 18/08/2011 09:17:09 PM 1811 Views
It should be re-titled A Jump with Sharks - 17/07/2011 06:00:37 PM 2022 Views
Publishers are more interested in the bottom line. - 18/07/2011 12:31:56 AM 1798 Views
Sadly, I am likely overestimating the intelligence of the readers. - 18/07/2011 03:05:12 AM 2012 Views
I felt bummed by Sanderson's new series. - 18/07/2011 05:25:09 AM 1864 Views
I bought that book but have yet to read it. - 18/07/2011 01:09:15 PM 1817 Views
Re: I bought that book but have yet to read it. - 20/07/2011 06:45:46 AM 1823 Views
You might like this quote from House of Leaves by Mark Z Danielewski. - 11/08/2011 03:42:05 PM 1908 Views
I'm afraid I have to agree with what seems to be the majority opinion... - 17/07/2011 07:35:47 PM 1953 Views
And on a different note entirely: is it me, or did the book need more proofreading? - 17/07/2011 07:39:15 PM 1844 Views
Yeah, I agree. - 18/07/2011 05:59:58 PM 1892 Views
The book really shows it is AFFC part 2 - 26/07/2011 03:00:07 AM 1869 Views
Am I The Only One In Love With Arya's Chapters? *spoilers maybe* - 18/07/2011 02:22:00 AM 1879 Views
I enjoyed them, very solid chapters. - 18/07/2011 12:50:43 PM 1910 Views
Unlike others, I won't start a separate thread to express my thoughts - 19/07/2011 11:21:17 AM 2026 Views
Yeah, I wished there was a way to move them in here! - 19/07/2011 01:42:51 PM 1765 Views
Me too... but going and complaining about them seems so lame, too. - 19/07/2011 07:34:47 PM 1782 Views
I agree with Jens, good balanced review. *NM* - 19/07/2011 07:50:13 PM 974 Views
I think you let him off too easily. - 20/07/2011 04:19:07 AM 1913 Views
Your review is a little too generous (in my opinion) - 20/07/2011 06:57:45 AM 2080 Views
I find myself both depressed and let down... - 20/07/2011 06:37:16 AM 2200 Views
Am I the only one who really likes... - 20/07/2011 06:04:00 PM 1976 Views
yeh, he is nice... *NM* - 20/07/2011 06:20:13 PM 967 Views
Davos is probably my favourite - 20/07/2011 09:51:03 PM 1687 Views
The six bodies fired by the trebuchet - 20/07/2011 10:36:16 PM 1876 Views
Yes, I was confused by that too. - 20/07/2011 10:53:35 PM 1796 Views
Probably pale mare victims. Seige warfare via plague - 20/07/2011 11:23:10 PM 1847 Views
Yes, I considered that as well... - 20/07/2011 11:48:32 PM 1818 Views
Have Quentyn's two mates already been sent off a this point? - 21/07/2011 02:03:15 PM 1868 Views
That could be it. *NM* - 21/07/2011 01:43:16 PM 883 Views
Stannis - 21/07/2011 08:43:40 AM 1821 Views
It's entirely possible Stannis was killed - 21/07/2011 02:09:10 PM 1908 Views
I highly doubt he's dead - 21/07/2011 07:29:59 PM 1859 Views
The bluff makes the most sense: if the Boltons beat Stannis, why does he ask for Theon & Jeyne? - 22/07/2011 12:01:30 AM 1920 Views
Yeah... - 22/07/2011 12:27:53 AM 1816 Views
The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up. - 21/07/2011 10:43:43 PM 1899 Views
Re: The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up. - 22/07/2011 05:42:13 PM 1998 Views
Alternatively.. - 22/07/2011 09:13:46 PM 1824 Views
Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? - 22/07/2011 04:32:39 PM 1869 Views
None of them. - 22/07/2011 06:25:19 PM 1781 Views
Is that personal opinion or based on something Martin said? *NM* - 22/07/2011 06:37:57 PM 977 Views
Opinion - 22/07/2011 07:43:16 PM 1824 Views
I think there are some god's, just given different names. Same with the magic. - 22/07/2011 09:24:51 PM 1814 Views
Lose the apostrophe in the subject line. Then: on what basis do you assume this? - 23/07/2011 02:28:49 AM 1843 Views
You might want to stop wasting time correcting others typos. As for the gods... - 23/07/2011 04:53:59 AM 1727 Views
You might want to stop making them. Particularly glaring ones like that. - 23/07/2011 05:01:03 AM 1897 Views
A typo can't be "glaring"... - 23/07/2011 08:08:51 AM 1778 Views
Sure it can. Glaring: conspicuous or obvious. - 23/07/2011 03:52:57 PM 1796 Views
Morality stems from god? - 22/07/2011 10:47:59 PM 1792 Views
Of course it does - 23/07/2011 02:26:50 AM 1771 Views
On second thought, let's address the issue directly. - 23/07/2011 05:14:59 AM 1866 Views
Perhaps... - 24/07/2011 07:03:24 PM 1808 Views
Its simple... - 24/07/2011 07:37:11 PM 1795 Views
I disagree... - 25/07/2011 04:10:04 AM 1879 Views
Bullshit. - 25/07/2011 05:44:41 AM 1751 Views
Re: Bullshit. - 25/07/2011 06:27:09 AM 1658 Views
Some thoughts... - 25/07/2011 04:54:05 AM 1777 Views
It's not an objective morality. - 25/07/2011 05:41:33 AM 1768 Views
Its not that simple... - 25/07/2011 06:21:39 AM 1818 Views
I don't disagree with most of what you said. I just reach a different conclusion. - 25/07/2011 01:57:31 PM 1752 Views
Well... - 25/07/2011 05:02:45 PM 1771 Views
How then do you deal with the Euthyphro dilemma? - 16/08/2011 01:43:18 PM 1637 Views
Re: Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? - 25/07/2011 02:24:07 PM 1699 Views
Whats the best new POV - 26/07/2011 03:14:05 AM 1822 Views
Barristan - 26/07/2011 12:23:20 PM 1780 Views
Didn't Aeron "Damphair" Greyjoy also only have 2 POVs - 26/07/2011 03:56:57 PM 1863 Views
Agreed. *NM* - 26/07/2011 11:33:11 PM 1011 Views
thirded. - 27/07/2011 04:16:26 PM 1657 Views
Absolutely *NM* - 29/07/2011 02:31:54 AM 1055 Views
Things you missed till they were pointed out via others or via a reread - 26/07/2011 03:23:53 AM 1965 Views
A bit. - 26/07/2011 12:32:32 PM 1930 Views
- 26/07/2011 03:46:54 PM 1875 Views
Re: - 27/07/2011 12:43:43 AM 1808 Views
Martin doesn't have to do anything - 27/07/2011 01:33:36 AM 1897 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything - 27/07/2011 04:38:19 AM 1768 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything - 27/07/2011 08:58:55 AM 1696 Views
Re: - 27/07/2011 04:27:18 AM 1881 Views
I like your theory. - 27/07/2011 04:35:22 PM 1897 Views
Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. - 26/07/2011 11:32:18 PM 1893 Views
Re: Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. - 27/07/2011 02:00:42 AM 1785 Views
Eh? - 29/07/2011 04:44:17 PM 1893 Views
This is complicated. - 31/07/2011 10:43:15 PM 2099 Views
Wait...a woman crowned for beauty was the victorious mystery knight? - 01/08/2011 03:00:49 AM 1802 Views
It is believed the Knight of the Laughing Tree is one of two people - 01/08/2011 04:47:21 AM 1843 Views
Yup. - 02/08/2011 12:03:26 AM 1733 Views
Also... - 02/08/2011 07:17:43 AM 1833 Views
And yet, my huge brain figures it out - 04/08/2011 04:20:06 PM 1810 Views
I've read this scene yesterday and I missed this... - 02/08/2011 07:55:35 AM 1828 Views
Allow me - 05/08/2011 02:14:15 PM 1680 Views
thanks *NM* - 07/08/2011 07:28:21 AM 958 Views
I thought this was pretty clear - 07/08/2011 05:18:54 PM 1709 Views
Hizdahr a Harpy? Innocent or Not? - 26/07/2011 03:36:56 AM 2109 Views
Interesting idea. - 26/07/2011 12:25:11 PM 1907 Views
Re: Interesting idea. - 27/07/2011 04:25:02 PM 1832 Views
What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? - 26/07/2011 04:13:27 PM 1819 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? - 27/07/2011 12:49:52 AM 2036 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? - 27/07/2011 03:49:18 AM 1935 Views
Re: A Dance with Dragons discussion thread - 29/07/2011 01:42:57 AM 1954 Views
Okay. I suck. - 29/07/2011 01:50:56 AM 1749 Views
Let me rephrase that... - 29/07/2011 01:54:07 AM 1726 Views
Jon Snow is definitely Azor Ahai. - 29/07/2011 07:31:17 PM 2338 Views
Hmm - 31/07/2011 01:52:03 PM 2106 Views
you are correct - 31/07/2011 11:08:39 PM 1830 Views
Yup. - 31/07/2011 10:49:34 PM 1649 Views
But Shireen is a dragon... - 01/08/2011 12:22:16 AM 1838 Views
I'm uncertain about that - 01/08/2011 05:35:18 AM 1820 Views
True, but I wouldn't read too much into that. - 01/08/2011 11:42:29 PM 2080 Views
Where did he say that? - 02/08/2011 07:18:39 AM 1946 Views
In interviews - 02/08/2011 02:21:28 PM 1911 Views
A little thought about Jon... - 02/08/2011 08:02:34 AM 1978 Views
Excellent point. - 02/08/2011 02:22:22 PM 1892 Views
Am I the only one who thinks... - 09/08/2011 05:16:46 PM 1919 Views
I think Martin's gonna stick to Bran being the only one who does that - 10/08/2011 09:25:12 AM 1839 Views
Anyone have any thoughts as to the purpose of Arya's storyline? - 14/08/2011 06:28:09 PM 1829 Views
She's being trained as an assassin, so the question is who is she going to kill? - 16/08/2011 01:43:12 AM 1760 Views
Jon? - 18/08/2011 09:59:03 PM 1801 Views

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