Playing with fire; I should've known TVTropes would exhaustively cover the derivatives.
Joel Send a noteboard - 24/04/2011 03:11:56 AM
Spoiler at the end; anyone going this deep this late in this thread without reading the Sprawl Trilogy deserves whatever they find.
They come dangerously close to calling Firefly cattlepunk (I confess the idea had occurred to me) and based on the fervor of Firefly fandom and many steampunk fans reaction to cyberpunk discussion, that's VERY dangerous indeed.
It's not always easy to determine what is and isn't cyberpunk; attempts to pigeonhole ironically blur the lines of demarcation. The Net was on a few hours ago; some might be surprised to hear me say I think it's more cyberpunk than the Terminator movies are. Certain ingredients are necessary for cyberpunk, and make it possible in any setting. The biggest is a noir society with powerful (though not necessarily malevolent) organizations, where trafficking in often proprietary data is integral to and fundamentally alters that society. Anywhere with espionage lends itself to this, because it's populated by jaded characters both moving a lot of critical secret data and employing a lot of it for the cool special gadgets associated with cyberpunk (it's important we don't put the cart before the horse here; cool gadgets are a SYMPTOM of cyberpunk, not a basis). Ian Fleming and Tom Clancy don't qualify because their protagonists usually work overtime to PREVENT secret new tech from fundamentally altering society, typically in nasty ways and/or on behalf of powerful malevolent organizations. You could make them cyberpunk with just a few tweaks though; cyberpunk owes as much to noir spy novels as it does to noir detective stories (whose cops, mafiosos, hidden weapons and mysteries thus also naturally lend themselves to cyberpunk, but unless the Maltese Falcon has the cure for cancer inside it's not a paradigm shift constituting cyberpunk).
There are also certain totems of cyberpunk, superficial side effects easily mistaken for core attributes, but they merit comment perhaps more for to avoid that mistake than to aid identification. Computers are the most obvious; good period cyberpunk exists with computers created by Babbage, Da Vinci, Merlin and [your polymath here]. Stephenson could do a stonepunk prequel to Snowcrash. The gadgetry I've already mentioned. Sprawls, megacorps and/or true dystopias are common in cyberpunk, but not NECESSARY. "Vanilla" cyberpunk is almost by definition set in the imminent future. The main thing to remember is that none of these phenomena are unique to cyberpunk; the determining factor is whether they function as part of a cyberpunk structure or a different kind of fiction. The presence of an AI doesn't make 2001 cyberpunk, nor an Aston-Martin turning into a jet make Bond cyberpunk, nor Coruscant make Star Wars cyberpunk, etc.
Here's an amusing question: Does the fragmentation of the Wintermute/Neuromancer entity into sub-entities who deny and ignore their parent prefigure the fragmentation of cyberpunk into derivatives that do the same...?
They come dangerously close to calling Firefly cattlepunk (I confess the idea had occurred to me) and based on the fervor of Firefly fandom and many steampunk fans reaction to cyberpunk discussion, that's VERY dangerous indeed.
It's not always easy to determine what is and isn't cyberpunk; attempts to pigeonhole ironically blur the lines of demarcation. The Net was on a few hours ago; some might be surprised to hear me say I think it's more cyberpunk than the Terminator movies are. Certain ingredients are necessary for cyberpunk, and make it possible in any setting. The biggest is a noir society with powerful (though not necessarily malevolent) organizations, where trafficking in often proprietary data is integral to and fundamentally alters that society. Anywhere with espionage lends itself to this, because it's populated by jaded characters both moving a lot of critical secret data and employing a lot of it for the cool special gadgets associated with cyberpunk (it's important we don't put the cart before the horse here; cool gadgets are a SYMPTOM of cyberpunk, not a basis). Ian Fleming and Tom Clancy don't qualify because their protagonists usually work overtime to PREVENT secret new tech from fundamentally altering society, typically in nasty ways and/or on behalf of powerful malevolent organizations. You could make them cyberpunk with just a few tweaks though; cyberpunk owes as much to noir spy novels as it does to noir detective stories (whose cops, mafiosos, hidden weapons and mysteries thus also naturally lend themselves to cyberpunk, but unless the Maltese Falcon has the cure for cancer inside it's not a paradigm shift constituting cyberpunk).
There are also certain totems of cyberpunk, superficial side effects easily mistaken for core attributes, but they merit comment perhaps more for to avoid that mistake than to aid identification. Computers are the most obvious; good period cyberpunk exists with computers created by Babbage, Da Vinci, Merlin and [your polymath here]. Stephenson could do a stonepunk prequel to Snowcrash. The gadgetry I've already mentioned. Sprawls, megacorps and/or true dystopias are common in cyberpunk, but not NECESSARY. "Vanilla" cyberpunk is almost by definition set in the imminent future. The main thing to remember is that none of these phenomena are unique to cyberpunk; the determining factor is whether they function as part of a cyberpunk structure or a different kind of fiction. The presence of an AI doesn't make 2001 cyberpunk, nor an Aston-Martin turning into a jet make Bond cyberpunk, nor Coruscant make Star Wars cyberpunk, etc.
Here's an amusing question: Does the fragmentation of the Wintermute/Neuromancer entity into sub-entities who deny and ignore their parent prefigure the fragmentation of cyberpunk into derivatives that do the same...?
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
The Sprawl Trilogy and Thoughts Thereof (or What Ever Happened to Cyberpunk?)
19/04/2011 10:50:26 PM
- 2447 Views
Why I prefer cyberpunk in near future settings to (most) of the steampunk sub-genre.
19/04/2011 10:55:57 PM
- 1323 Views
The difference is that steampunk, by and large, is very aware of its implausibility.
20/04/2011 01:32:57 AM
- 887 Views
You keep giving steampunk backhanded compliments like that and you'll start to confuse me.
20/04/2011 02:12:53 AM
- 953 Views
Being entertaining is not a backhanded compliment.
20/04/2011 02:34:15 AM
- 1017 Views
It is when asserting something is better than a source containing more than entertainment.
20/04/2011 03:26:50 AM
- 1101 Views
...didn't you wear a top hat to your wedding? *NM*
20/04/2011 04:04:42 AM
- 458 Views
IIRC I wore morning dress, the CURRENT standard here.
20/04/2011 05:08:26 AM
- 959 Views
Top hats in morning dress have gone the way of the ascot (you didn't wear an ascot, did you?).
20/04/2011 05:41:54 AM
- 896 Views
Well, my wife, mother-in-law and the woman at the haberdashery all disagree.
20/04/2011 07:05:09 AM
- 984 Views
the ability to wear a costume at a convention is hardly a ringing endorsement of a genre
22/04/2011 01:49:40 AM
- 1049 Views
Your impression is close to being my comments verbatim.
22/04/2011 02:50:18 AM
- 1019 Views
I tried to avoid that word, but I'll leave comparisons there and discuss pure cyberpunk henceforth.
22/04/2011 03:58:29 PM
- 1041 Views
You keep coming back to this argument, and it keeps being a stupid one.
22/04/2011 10:33:14 PM
- 956 Views
I also can't help noting how this whole argument mirrors Count Zero.
24/04/2011 05:35:01 AM
- 1314 Views
I think it's just a matter of two separate genres that share very similar names and perhaps origins.
20/04/2011 01:32:50 AM
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It's hard to argue that the genres are separate, but I did try to avoid suggesting a competition.
20/04/2011 03:08:49 AM
- 1070 Views
Ok, what are you trying to argue for and/or explore in this thread? There are three options:
20/04/2011 04:22:52 AM
- 955 Views
It is under-appreciated critically, largely due to relative unpopularity.
20/04/2011 06:35:27 AM
- 1143 Views
"Victorian Postmodernism" is viable because Postmodernism can appropriate other periods and styles.
21/04/2011 01:13:45 AM
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But can other periods and styles appropriate postmodernism?
21/04/2011 07:38:29 PM
- 1048 Views
I don't think it's a two-way street in that manner. It's PoMo appropriating Victorian not vice versa
21/04/2011 11:40:29 PM
- 1043 Views
It's only superficially postmodern though, else there'd be no wistfulness for Victorian styles.
22/04/2011 03:17:38 PM
- 1068 Views
IMO, cyberpunk has become somewhat dated.
20/04/2011 04:46:55 AM
- 1120 Views
Actually, I can live with that, though terms like "dated" invite trouble.
20/04/2011 07:01:50 AM
- 977 Views
Re: Actually, I can live with that, though terms like "dated" invite trouble.
22/04/2011 04:12:20 AM
- 1044 Views
so...is bladerunner cyberpunk
20/04/2011 09:48:15 PM
- 827 Views
It's usually seen as the archetypal cyberpunk film, yeah.
21/04/2011 10:50:44 AM
- 1163 Views
so cyber is the time and punk is the attitude?
21/04/2011 12:57:01 PM
- 949 Views
I don't think the portmanteau is that precisely defined.
21/04/2011 08:31:34 PM
- 1073 Views
I am amazed that no one has referenced this TVTropes page yet...
23/04/2011 07:45:14 PM
- 1313 Views
Playing with fire; I should've known TVTropes would exhaustively cover the derivatives.
24/04/2011 03:11:56 AM
- 1256 Views
It's always hard to pigeonhole things, especially as they become more specific
24/04/2011 06:27:28 PM
- 916 Views
The "dated" idea is interesting.
23/04/2011 08:08:26 PM
- 1001 Views
PS the Takeshi Kovacs books are great, and you should all go read them *NM*
23/04/2011 08:09:54 PM
- 429 Views
I think it underestimates cyberpunk, and overestimates (present) reality (yes, spoilers now).
24/04/2011 02:24:01 AM
- 997 Views